Episode Transcript

The Assignment with Audie Cornish

OCT 23, 2025
What Zohran Mamdani’s Rise Says About the Future of the Left
Speakers
Audie Cornish, Mayoral debate clip, Mamdani Social Media clip, Mamdani WIRED interview clip, Mamdani NBC news clip, Astead Herndon,
Audie Cornish
00:00:00
I'm Audie Cornish and this is the Assignment. In classic fashion, New York City residents are acting like their mayoral election deserves national attention. And frankly, it does, mostly because of this guy.
Mayoral debate clip
00:00:13
'The name is Mamdani. M-A-M-D-A-N-I, you should learn how to say it.
Audie Cornish
00:00:19
Zohran Mamdani's major primary win this summer over incumbent Eric Adams and former Governor Andrew Cuomo turned many eyes to the concrete jungle where Mamdani's hoping dreams are made of. He's young, he's charming.
Mamdani Social Media clip
00:00:33
'I know some of you have expressed concerns about my age. You're worried about a 33 year old becoming mayor of New York City. And I want you to know I hear you. That's why this weekend I'll be making a change. I'm turning thirty-four. And very online. What is your internet guilty pleasure?
Mamdani WIRED interview clip
00:00:51
Probably say TikTok. Same. You know? It's been quite concerning now. A lot of my algorithm is AI videos of Jake Paul speaking Punjabi.
Audie Cornish
00:01:00
And a democratic socialist.
Mamdani NBC news clip
00:01:02
You know, I call myself a democratic socialist in many ways inspired by the words of Dr. King from decades ago, who said, Call it democracy or call it democratic socialism. There has to be a better distribution of wealth for all of God's children in this country.
Audie Cornish
00:01:14
Mamdani secured the notoriously hard to come by endorsement of the Democratic Socialist of America. His rise is actually a huge moment for the group. Organizers say the DSA's New York City chapter membership has doubled since the end of June. So now it's around 11,000. So is it a fluke or is it a movement? Could Mamdani's success have an impact outside the reliably liberal bubble of New York City? And how is he playing with mainstream Democrats? Stay with us.
Astead Herndon
00:02:00
My name is Astead Herndon. I am a host and editorial director at Vox.com and Vox Media. But for a long time, up until last week, I was a New York Times reporter and most recently wrote a cover story for the New York Times magazine about Zohran Mamdani.
Audie Cornish
00:02:15
So in the short time since we called you to talk about this, your title has changed because life comes at us.
Astead Herndon
00:02:24
Life comes at you fast.
Audie Cornish
00:02:25
Mums at us fast. But it is a good, it's a good moment to talk to you because in a way the conversation around Mamdani is a conversation, at least in the Democratic Party, between legacy ideas and ways of doing things and new, different, modern, more online ways of doing things, which you are actually straddling as well.
Astead Herndon
00:02:49
Yeah, I mean it's actually was interesting because the process of the reporting was happening at the same time. I was kind of thinking about these things in my own life. And it it kind of calm it was kind of a build up from things and a change in media environment that we've seen over the last several years. I think Mamdani's really capitalized on that.
Audie Cornish
00:03:05
Big time.
Astead Herndon
00:03:05
You know, where he understands that legacy and traditional media are not often dictating the conversation anymore. And it was really explicit in the reporting, it becomes really clear that when he was calling people about getting in the race, he was doing so saying, I need a social media operation that's going to make go further than money can get me. And so it was so conscious for him. And I think that is, you know, to your point, it really speaks to a shift in media environment, shift in politics. And I think a shift in kind of the way people consume information now. And so, you know, I as part of this effort, I was thinking about like, you know, if you're not on TikTok, if you're not kind of consuming vertical, if that's not how you consume info, we should stop thinking about that as like silo. That's where it lives now.
Audie Cornish
00:03:54
And it also means someone like you who instead of being like, I have reached the mountaintop, like I am at the New York Times writing the big piece about the big political player of the moment.
Astead Herndon
00:04:05
It is, it is funny. My mom reminded me that when I got the Times job, I was twenty five and she asked me, like, what's, you know, like this is it, right? And I was like, Oh, I'm never getting another job again. Like, I'm gonna work here forever. And I think it really just speaks to, you know, I think evolution and growth and all of those things. But also I think how much has changed in eight years, even just when we look at the media landscape.
Audie Cornish
00:04:30
'So we're going to talk about a couple of things because this, the story of Zohran Mamdani, in a way is the story, I think, of the last two years of post-election and post-Gaza war politics in the US. They kind of all get tangled up together, and I needed someone to help me untangle it. Let's just start with Mamdani himself, because there are some relevant parts of his biography that come into play later. One, him being the son of a movie director, who happened to be one of my favorites. I know now, now you're not supposed to like her, but Mira Nair is very well-known movie director. I was into it, and she made movies like I think Mississippi Masala. Vanity Fair, she did with Reese Witherspoon, Kama Sutra, look it up, it's not what you think. And you have someone who is the son of a storyteller, but you also have somebody who you write, nobody asked to run. Like there was not, like the democratic socialists didn't sit in a room and hatch him in a lab. The democratic establishment didn't want him. Who came up with the idea for him to run?
Astead Herndon
00:05:39
He did. He Manifested it. And I think that's an important kind of first step in terms of understanding him. And I think it's really to your point, speaks to someone who kind of has a unique life to kind to give him the confidence to see himself in that situation.
Audie Cornish
00:05:54
But in the post Obama era it makes sense, which is do I really have to wait in line?
Astead Herndon
00:05:59
'Absolutely. And you're also talking to someone who has existed outside of Democrats for a longer time. So, you know, as I think Democrats are waking up to a moment now where they're seeing a disconnect between working class base and trying to thinking about how they update policy and platform and message to match that. Zohran Mamdani is someone who's been canvassing in working class neighborhoods of New York for the last seven years, telling them that Democrats were out of touch, right? So it's not a new language that he had to find. He basically basically saw a new type of ceiling with beliefs he's long had. So when I'm talking to him, you know, he kind of understood that his pro-Palestinian advocacy would be controversial in his political career until that has a big shift in terms of public sentiment over the last couple of years, right? And so he starts his political career with like Muslim Democratic Club in New York, Democratic Socialists of America. And those things I think represent rising tides in the New York election, and I would say in the country generally.
Audie Cornish
00:06:59
I was about to say I was reading some Gallup polling, I think a few maybe a month ago, that was talking about the sort of diminished faith in capitalism that Gen Z has, but how this is also very much reflected in the democratic leaning electorate, which has become less and I'm just gonna use the term less hostile rather than pro to something like socialism.
Astead Herndon
00:07:22
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. I wouldn't say pro DSA, but I think the fear of DSA is definitely not the same. And also I think DSA has matured in ways that I, you know, trying to lay out in the story and I don't think it's been appreciated nationally. They were quite nervous about stepping into citywide races. They thought that they had did not have the they thought a a kind of electoral embarrassment would hurt them reputationally.
Audie Cornish
00:07:45
This is the democratic socialist. So they're like, We don't wanna be seen as wing nuts.
Astead Herndon
00:07:49
Yes. What Zohran, I think, is good at understanding is his distinctness from typical DSA. So he is someone who, you know, half the time is organizing in socialist Bernie language, but also is going he knows the kind of Arab and Muslim community. And he knows I call him like a someone who's used to the aunties, you know? And I think that like Like, And I think that's not universally true of all millennial socialists, you know.
Audie Cornish
00:08:14
Of the Bernie Bros? No? That was not the brand. It's like this is another good this is see again, so many threads. So we pulled two already. Social media, right? He understood. Number two, you don't wait in line. But number three, making finding your distinct lane in a kind of confusing landscape of democratic ideologies and wings and parties.
Astead Herndon
00:08:41
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:08:41
Because for the longest time, I feel like democratic socialism was seen as it's like the Green Party or something. But it means we've arrived in this place where somebody could somehow find a distinctive lane as a democratic socialist and that the voter would be able to be with them on that distinction.
Astead Herndon
00:09:03
Yeah, and I think that really the failures of democratic establishment, in my opinion, have opened up this space.
Audie Cornish
00:09:09
Ooh, say more.
Astead Herndon
00:09:10
I think that Zohran's authenticity is a counterexample to the perceived inauthenticity that was happening at a national level. That he is seen as trustworthy, particularly in my opinion, because of advocacy around Gaza. I think particularly because of his willingness to kind of own a populist against renter, you know, against real estate companies type of lane. And I'm saying that's a lane that's been opened up because the Cuomo of the world, right, have been working with those folks hand in glove.
Audie Cornish
00:09:41
Yeah, but what about the Tim Waltzes? I mean, there were people who were a authentic or at least authentically deemed authentic.
Astead Herndon
00:09:49
I'm not saying that they don't exist in the national party. Yeah. I'm really saying that the national party has had a brand collapse under Biden. A hundred percent.
Audie Cornish
00:09:57
Okay.
Astead Herndon
00:09:57
Like this isn't gonna matter when we're talking about like the New Jersey race or the Virginia governor's race, because those things are done with the prospect of beating a Republican on the other side. I think this matters in the within Democratic context in New York City. I think this is gonna matter in the presidential primary when it comes to 2027.
Audie Cornish
00:10:14
You talked about the idea that the DSA, Democratic Socialists, at least the local chapters, th they were a little bit nervous about him, but it it brings me back to the point that he's not the first DSA candidate, right? Like someone to get that endorsement.
Astead Herndon
00:10:29
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:10:29
And how or in what ways is he not different from Bernie Sanders or AOC or the people traditionally backed by democratic socialists?
Astead Herndon
00:10:41
Well, I would say if you just use Sanders and Ocasio Cortez's examples, Zoran Mamdani is much more of a rank and file DSA member. He was a part of the org, he's a part of the endorsement process, he helped shape their electoral strategy. They're used to kind of having candidates more like ALC who embrace progressive politics and then join up with DSA basically for the purposes of their run. He's a DSA baby, you know. That's a little different than I think other folks. I think it's part of the reason some of his values are expressed more clearly. Like he will not budge on the on millionaires, billionaires had not should not exist. That's a core belief of his, you know. Or and so it's and so I think it's been the the relationship with DSA has it will be interesting going forward because in some ways they have more sense of ownership around him, they have more sense of expectation around him. But at the same time, the mayoral role, and I think Zohran knows this, he expressed it to me, does not reward purity ideologically.
Audie Cornish
00:11:45
Yeah.
Astead Herndon
00:11:45
It's it's a horrible role for that. If you want to maintain your beliefs and not change, you should be in Congress. So I'm saying, like, you know, they they love a value.
Audie Cornish
00:11:54
I can tell you left the Times, just jokes left and right now.
Astead Herndon
00:11:59
I'm like join the Senate if you wanna do nothing.
Audie Cornish
00:12:03
Here's another question, then. Here's another question. The Mamdani that won the New York City primary, Democratic primary this summer, is not the same one who's campaigning now. What are the issues? Just give us two, where he has made either a compromise or found a way to talk to the voter about.
Astead Herndon
00:12:24
The biggest one was policing. That's the biggest one.
00:12:26
Policing. Okay. So coming off of meaning he was he a defund the police advocate. Okay.
Astead Herndon
00:12:32
He he was. And he is not only one eighty'd, he has apologized. He has apologized direct to camera on Fox News. He's apologized privately to Rank of Val officers. He has in interviews with me and elsewhere, pretty much signaled he's willing to keep on NYPD commissioner Jessica Tish.
Audie Cornish
00:12:52
Just is he like I was just wrong, they're amazing or there's a different way to do policing? Like, does he have a way of spinning it?
Astead Herndon
00:12:59
He literally says, I got caught up in a heat heat of a moment and misunderstood the severity of the issue. And he will own that he was incorrect. And so in the I think the number one shift is policing. And I think it's important to know, like, to my some of what I'm saying about mayors, like you can't police kind of have veto power on mayors. And and the New York City example is Bill de Blasio. Like he basically never recovers reputationally from police turning their backs on him. And the and folks around him say that's necessary, not just because of police are core to kind of the day to day functioning of the city, but because Donald Trump might be imposing the National Guard. Yeah, he might need police.
Audie Cornish
00:13:42
But also Donald Trump made gains in New York and New Jersey and other areas specifically around law and order voters and crime as an issue.
Astead Herndon
00:13:54
Right. So his sh so basically he is presented with polling at the beginning of the race that says public safety is the number one concern. He says, no, we got to make this about affordability. But they understand that public safety is a barrier for them and that people's concerns about public safety rise, everything is gonna collapse.
Audie Cornish
00:14:14
Yeah.
Astead Herndon
00:14:15
And so what I'm saying is they stepped away from it. And so when I think where he is landed, I imagine will be where Democrats land. Like they're not going back to defund, not even the left. And so I think that we can see this as kind of an answer to where Democrats have landed on like issues like public safety. It'll be interesting to see how they talk about it though. And I think Zohran's a good example of like if defund doesn't have an electoral benefit for him, we can pretty much assume it's death.
Audie Cornish
00:14:44
Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay. We are talking with Astead Herndon of the New York Times, actually now of Vox about the New York mayor's race, the Democratic Party, Democratic Socialism, and a lot more. Stay with us.
Audie Cornish
00:15:03
So I asked you about how he's a different candidate than he was when he won the primary. And I think there's no way we can talk about this without talking about how he has dealt not just with the war in Gaza, but with the Jewish community of New York. And this is obviously important because the student protests at Columbia and on college campuses generally completely wrecked democratic politics on Israel. Like ski every schism has been laid bare.
Astead Herndon
00:15:39
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:15:39
And then in comes a democratic socialist brown candidate.
Astead Herndon
00:15:45
Muslim.
Audie Cornish
00:15:46
Yeah, who's Muslim. And so what did he try to do and who helped him do it?
Astead Herndon
00:15:51
I would say when you think about these issues, you can kind of separate them in terms of time.
Audie Cornish
00:15:55
Yeah, please do.
Astead Herndon
00:15:56
One is this is the core issue to his political activation. And he this so the idea that Israel and Palestine is how Zorhan Mamdani became came to politics is true. He says this. In high school, he is arguing with classmates on Facebook about Palestine. And he he talks about how he he starts students for justice in Palestinian college. So I'm saying like it is the through line.
Audie Cornish
00:16:22
This is not a heat of the moment.
Astead Herndon
00:16:23
It's not a heat of the moment. This it is it is it is who he is.
Audie Cornish
00:16:26
He is part of the movement that some people would look at and say, you know, maybe i Biden would have done better in here and there if you didn't have this activist left pushing the administration on Gaza.
Astead Herndon
00:16:40
And then when he starts running, his advocacy becomes a reason for him to break through the field, right? There were so many progressive and left candidates who were supposed to be ahead of him in this race, right? But what they were not doing was centering Palestinian advocacy. And so he it becomes a key connector. And I think this is important for folks to get, like he raises initial money because of that, right? Like it drives his ability to go on shows or connect with like even some celebrities who were speaking out come to him because of that.
Audie Cornish
00:17:09
The flip side is, you know, there on Jig Tapper the other day there was a rabbi who, you know, gave his message to his congregation of like you should not vote for Mamdani.
Astead Herndon
00:17:20
He's not gonna win a certain set of folks. I'm saying it's I don't I think I think they've conceded that. But Zohran Mamdani is very likely to win more Jewish folks than Andrew Cuomo.
Audie Cornish
00:17:29
So that leaves us with our final two issues. Andrew Cuomo in a lot of ways represents the past fights of the Democratic Party, holding on to, you know, a a white ethnic voter population, right? A base that is going to turn out and support you with messages that you think are going to win them over. Even their fight culturally over the Me Too movement, right? Going from any infraction is disqualifying to I guess you're running again, right? Yep. So is Mamdani leading or is Cuomo losing? And in a way, you could have said the same thing with Eric Adams, right? Like, are we looking at someone on the ascent or are these figures so diminished they never should have been in the race?
Astead Herndon
00:18:16
'I think it's an important point. Like, I think Zohran has unique qualities that are helping his ascent. But if you set those to the side, there is independent issues. But Cuomo really had, you know, he had pitched the inevitably just beyond like name recognition and stuff, people really thought that that old delivery form of politics still worked. He had the union endorsements, right? He had your traditional electeds who are supposed to be turnout machines, right? They just don't work in the same way anymore. And so I think that that's a bigger shift than even Cuomo's own individual failures as a candidate. Like the version of politics that is top down is not producing, right? And so I'm saying that's what Biden was betting on too, that he can just like kind of impose those old rules. And that coalition of older black folks, of homeowners, of, you know, kind of moderate, like that kind of moderate coalition has its own coalition— is fraying. And I think it's an interesting thing when we think about what's going to happen in the presidential primary coming forward, because I think a lot of people are just very used to being able to cobble together a kind of Biden-esque group. But I think the mayor's race really, in my opinion, should be a takeaway from them. Is like they're not delivering the votes. It's not. And so if you can cross the barrier that Ramdani did in terms of engaging people on the mass politics level, they're eat they're paper tigers, you know. And so like I think that is what a lot of the kind of populist lane is feeling right now, is that they're that the you know, the party's kind of ripe for the taking.
Audie Cornish
00:19:56
One of the things that I think we all learned from Kamala Harris and her loss is that clicks are not votes. That you can have a surge of online interest that does not translate in the places you need it to. And Mamdani was named by Wired as the internet's mayor. So tell me what you think is the difference between the like online, algorithmically reinforced energy around him and like coconuts.
Astead Herndon
00:20:30
Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's a great question. I you know, online is not irrelevant. But as we know, it's not the whole thing either. And so he had the intention about social, particularly to drive interest, to drive money, all those things. I said this as someone who lives in who lives in kind of Mamdani capital of the world. Like I live in Northbrook, I live in Bushwick, like—
Audie Cornish
00:20:50
'Where everyone is Mamdani-pilled.
Astead Herndon
00:20:52
He puts up North Korea numbers there. But the important thing is not that it's young leftists. Like those people live there. The important thing is that my neighbors love him. The important thing is like the immigrant, like the New York City coalition of immigrants, distinct, like distant from politics, love him. And so that's what I felt tell people is the distinction between Brat Summer. That was never a kind of organic thing that was also translating to people who don't follow day to day. The thing that has been most impressive about the coalition is it is the politically interested and uninterested. It is illusion and disillusion.
Audie Cornish
00:21:33
Is that 'cause he does what Trump does, meaning I'm going to the podcast.
Astead Herndon
00:21:37
For sure. I think that matters
Audie Cornish
00:21:38
I'm sitting for three hours. I'm also in the memes.
Astead Herndon
00:21:41
Yes. I think that's super important. Donald Trump is another person who is very good at illusioned and disillusioned, like at getting them to vote. And so I'm like, you can ignore that or not, but like that is the sauce.
Audie Cornish
00:21:54
Will there actually be tangible lessons for Democrats out of this race? Given that, and maybe because I'm from Boston, it's New York. Like I just think sometimes there are things that are specific to New York. It's not really a bellwether, or else we would have had a president Bloomberg.
Astead Herndon
00:22:12
Yeah, I mean, and here's what I say to that kind of question is like two things I think do you think are unique right now. Democrats have collapsed in cities. And that messed them up in November, last November. I mean, the reason Donald Trump is a popular vote winner is about New York, is about Chicago, is about Los Angeles, right? For sure. And so I don't think it doesn't matter because I think that these cities and Democrats' relationship to their own voters there is a core part of their electoral problem and their brand problem. Like I think they are not working for most people, right? And I think most people's relationship to Democrats comes from their city. And they're largely broken. I think that's fair to say. And so I think that like that to me is a reason why it matters. The second thing I think is it makes it important, and just why I say it's about the primary and not the midterms, is like, I don't think you're gonna, I think the people who are trying to extrapolate this to midterm races, that's not how they work. My experience with midterms is they're localized races. What I think what Mamdani's impact will be is when Democrats are having a national conversation about when who they want to be, which is in my opinion, a presidential primary and not a midterms race. And so I think the Zohran question of it all, how much is advocating for Palestinians a litmus test for Democrats at this point? Because Gallup polling tells us criticize like it's an 80 20 issue at this point. And so I'm like, that would tell me that come primary time, it's gonna be very difficult to get around.
Audie Cornish
00:23:45
And to then turn to those same base voters and say, Hold that thought. We really think we should go in a different direction for the general when they might look at an election cycle past and say, That doesn't work.
Astead Herndon
00:23:55
I don't know that they don't want to do that. And so I actually just think there's been a fundamental change in the Dem electorate. I don't think we know exactly where that goes until they're willing to, so they're forced to have that conversation out loud and in public. To me, I'm like, it's it's it's 2019 all over again. We're gonna get that like cluster messy 20 candidates. And I'm thinking that one didn't settle those questions though, because the obsession was about beating Trump and that electability concern pointed to Joe Biden. But they never answered who they were on immigration. They never answered who they were on economy. Like, and I think they've just punted all of those things until they're gonna be forced to answer it next time around.
Audie Cornish
00:24:34
Well, Astead, it's been a joy watching your rise. It's been a joy watching you as a reporter come up. Congratulations on your new gig.
Astead Herndon
00:24:43
Thank you.
Audie Cornish
00:24:44
Thank you so much for being with us.
Astead Herndon
00:24:46
Loved it. Thanks for having me.
Audie Cornish
00:24:48
That was Astead Herndon. You can read his story about Mamdani at the New York Times in their magazine, but no, his future reporting will be at Vox, where he is a host and editorial director. Thanks so much for listening, and we will see you next week.