This week is the White House Correspondents' Dinner, and if I'm being honest, I didn't have any plans to attend. I mean, I've gone in the past, but I'm not a member of the White House Correspondent's Association, and usually this event is about kind of filling tables for the organization's fundraiser for journalism students. Needless to say, with the decision to cancel the traditional comedy roast from the program, the vibes are...off.

Amber, following the tradition of Craig from Friday, was fired on her day off.

'That's Roy Wood Jr. He's host of the CNN comedy show, Have I Got News for You, and a one-time WHCD headliner himself. He was talking with his co-star Amber Ruffin about the controversy. Basically, the deputy chief of staff at the White House had complained publicly about Amber Rufin, who was the choice to headline the event. Soon after, the Whitehouse Correspondents' Association dropped her, saying they did not want the focus of the dinner to be the politics of division.

She was uninvited from the White House Correspondents Dinner when she said that she intended to make fun of the current administration. Amber, do you think you lost the gig because you said too early what you were going to do about going in on Republicans?

I mean, I lost the gig because I was out here talking shit. I think it's a good thing that I lost the gig, because I was going to show up there and act all the way out.

This is the latest chapter in the comedy world culture wars, with liberal performers like Ruffin on one end of the spectrum, and on the other, a new wave of mainstream comedians no longer nervous to embrace Trump or his politics, and more than willing to explain how Democrats lost the plot. Take comedian and "manosphere" podcaster, Andrew Schulz. Here he is on the free speech YouTube show, Triggernometry.

When I was younger, Democrats were cool. Now, the president got three baby mamas. He's getting ***** left and right, right? He's cool. He's the one saying, say whatever the **** you want. So I don't think I've changed. I just like the dudes who get ***** and say whatever they want.

Another example, Tony Hinchcliffe, made infamous with his jokes at the Trump campaign rally at Madison Square Garden back in October.

Like, I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. Yeah. I think it's called Puerto Rico.

'So today, what is even funny anymore when it comes to politics? Who gets to decide which comedians are the truth-tellers of the moment? And who's laughing now? I'm Audie Cornish, and this is The Assignment.

W. Kamau Bell is a comedian who's not afraid of getting political or wandering into the deep end of the culture wars. In 2016, he interviewed a member of the KKK for his former CNN TV show, United Shades of America. In 2022, he directed the documentary, we need to talk about Cosby.

I don't know, my life every few years or so gives me another reason to have to defend my choices.

Yeah, I'd say so.

'His latest choice, sticking with his plan to perform at the Kennedy Center in February, right when President Donald Trump fired most of its board of trustees and put himself in charge. Lots of other artists straight-up canceled in protest.

This is one of the first times I was like, this? This I have to defend? It's one of them. Usually I'm like, yes, meeting with the Klan, I get it. Yes, a documentary about Bill Cosby, I did it. But this, I was just like, okay.

Part of Bell's defense, that he's made in blog posts and interviews since, is that in a way he doesn't have a choice, his sense of purpose is a family inheritance.

My mom always talked about her dad, Smith Cheatham, who he had like, you know, two or three jobs to make money to support his family. But then he also was at the church every night doing community work. And he was also like on a leadership board for the Black community. So it was just the thing like you couldn't just do your job, your capitalist job, you also do your community job. And that certainly got passed down through my mom to me. And I'm trying to pass it down to my kids.

'His mother is his role model. In the early 80s, she noticed there were no mainstream books of Black quotations, so she started self-publishing her own and getting them in bookstores around the country. Teenage Kamau was her unofficial assistant.

First, I actually have to ask, did she have a favorite quote?

Yes, a Howard Thurman quote: "There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever have." Boom, I'm pretty proud of myself I gotta admit that I remembered that that was that quote and I found it.

'He says the quote is exactly in line with what his mother taught him. Do what you want in life, but make sure you do it well and listen to your inner voice. So we talked about what it means to listen to that inner voice right now with so many comedians carrying the torch of anti-woke politics.

About a week before my gig, there was talk that Trump was going to take it over, but it was just talk. I don't know how it was framed, but nobody at the Kennedy Center felt like it was a real thing. But then when I was on the flight, I was about to step on the flight and I got an email from somebody at the Kennedy Center, like, can you call us right away? And I was like, I'm about to get on a plane to go to the Kennedy Center. I was, it was like the day before my gig and I was getting on a flight. And so they reached out to my publicist and then she reached out to me and was just like, So he's officially taking it over. They don't know what it means because nobody, because there's no, they've got no precedent for this. And they just want to talk to you and see what you want to do. And I did have this sort of thought about like, like, what does that mean? I think it's a big question. What does that means that he's taking it? Oh, because Trump says a lot of things.

Yeah, but now we know more I mean in terms of what has happened to its season and the artists who have pulled away As this kind of played out. Do you have any regrets?

'No. Again, I get confused about the regret thing because it was like, I did a thing at a moment in time. Like, the day I performed in the Kennedy Center, like, his people hadn't stepped foot in the building yet. All the people who had booked me still worked there. There were 1,500 people who had bought tickets to see me. And after the show, I stayed and signed autographs and signed books. And everybody's like, thank you for coming here, because this is the last time I'll ever come here. And this was a great way to go out. So I think as much as we think about like political statements, there's multiple ways to make political statements. And I was very clear-throated in my disapproval of Trump. Like, it wasn't like I went in there and, and decided, you know, I better take it easy because Trump took it over. I stand in the tradition of Lenny Bruce, of Dick Gregory, of George Carlin. I know that there's a thing that I can do as a comedian that Lin-Manuel Miranda and Issa Rae can't do it. And I'm not blaming them. They have different job descriptions. Where I can speak directly to the issue in the room in a way that the actor playing Hamilton can't turn to the front and go look I want to talk to you for a second about what's going on. So I felt very clear about the fact that like I'm in a singular position as a stand-up comedian who tends to want to try to speak truth to power that most other performers are not.

The reason why I'm interested in this is because we are in this moment where we are seeing more comedians who identify as conservative getting that mainstream attention, which is significant for the longest time they were saying, "No one will give me a shot. This is damaging to me in the industry." Um, and, and now it feels like that's not so much the case.

Yeah, I guess I don't know who as a comedian. I'm trying to think of like.

Oh, here, I'll give a name, for instance. So like Tony Hinchcliffe, right? Going from being in Madison Square Garden, making his comment to like getting a Netflix show. Like he's doing well. He was not canceled, which I say, because for the longest time, the people out front of the conversation of everything's too woke, I'll get canceled if I say X, Y, and Z, the extreme left is too PC. Like it was the world of comedy. Like, those were the guys who were out.

The greatest trick comedians have ever pulled on audiences is fear of cancelation as a marketing tool. Because when we sit back and go, what comedians that have been canceled, of comedians who are like actual comedians who go on stage regularly, it's hard to find one who wasn't canceled for something they were doing offstage, which was probably illegal or immoral, you know? And so, and the one, and even some of those are, Louis C.K. is selling out Madison Square Garden again. So I think that the comedians as a whole are smart enough and this is unfortunate to sort of like use cancel culture as a grift or as part of the marketing of it. And Tony Hinchcliffe is let's be clear, full stop is no comedian's favorite comedian. He is not a great comedian. The fact he makes a living off comedy shows how porous the market is, less about his abilities as a standup comedian.

Oh, say more, how porous the market is. Tell me more about that.

'So the way that Tony Hinchcliffe makes his career is he has a show called Kill Tony, which is a stand-up comedy showcase show that Tony hosts, but he's not doing a lot of comedy. And it's sort of based in this roast culture of stand- up comedy, which is not based in material. It's based in how mean can you be to somebody. It's all, it's fine. If you want to do that, that's fine, and it has a big online presence. It's big on YouTube. So it's a thing that is like a niche product, but successful, but it is in no way based on Tony's abilities as a stand-up comedian. It'd be a little bit if like, we called Ed Sullivan a stand up comic. Just like he's the host of a show. The only Tony Hinchcliffe joke you know is the one about Puerto Rico. So there's that. And then over here, there's Anthony Jeselnik, who has spent his entire 20-year career saying the most foul, disgusting things that he could think to come up with and getting away with it because he's made that agreement with his audience that this is what we're here to do.

'It's interesting, because I do think about the past couple of years of comedy, which were very much dominated by, I would think, the liberal-leaning comedian behind a desk, kind of cosplaying at the news, parodying even, obviously, in the case of Colbert, like conservative culture. And even late night still, those comedians are often knocking Republicans in particular, not just Trump. So is there something to the fact that liberal politics has suffused mainstream comedy for so long that to someone like me, it would seem striking. Even if it's not, as you said, the lines aren't exactly being colored in all the way.

I think comedians who have liberal viewpoints get called political in the way that a lot of times comedians who clearly have conservative viewpoints, aren't called conservative. So only now has Tim Allen been sort of hailed as a conservative comedian, when if you look at his whole history of state of comedy, it is very conservative. Only now is Jerry Seinfeld sort of revealing himself. And be like, I don't think this guy. Is the liberal New Yorker we would expect him to be, because now in this moment, he sort of actually saying the quiet part out loud. But I could go through the history of comedy and go liberal, conservative, liberal, conservative, liberal, conservative. It's just, the difference has changed. Conservative comedians knew it was bad for business to claim conservative, because you look conservative for years was the bully. Now we're celebrating the bully, so now these conservative comedians can say, I am conservative, because we're cheering the bully.

'I want to challenge something you just said, because it's actually making me think about Seinfeld in particular. So last year, he was telling the New Yorker that he was talking about why there was no funny TV, so to speak, like a kind of golden age of comedy was gone. And he was saying it's the result of extreme left and PC crap, and alluding to the idea that executives are worried about offending people. But the thing he said that you just reminded me of is now people are going to see stand-up because we're not policed by anyone. And that he said with certain comedians now people are having fun stepping over the line and us all laughing about it but it's because stand-ups that really have the freedom to do it because no one else gets to blame if it doesn't go down well. Which is fair. But it gets to that idea of a bully because I think that the thing I hear most by people who talk about cancel culture in particular is the idea of being policed. And way back when the Republicans were the one policing everyone right with the like religious right and all of these kind of conversations about what you could and couldn't do. And now people tend to see liberals that way that they're the ones telling people what they can and cannot do or say. That is one of the common sentiments you would hear from very high-profile comedians.

And let me explain the difference between a high profile comedian and people of my level and below. They're talking about if I say the wrong thing, I lose business. Like if Seinfeld says something tomorrow that is like considered to be, Ah! They will pull his reruns of Seinfeld off Netflix or wherever it is. We're not talking about comedians in the same way as people who are doing the hard work of doing two shows in Modesto, California this Saturday in front of an audience of people who were waiting for the dance party to start.

I was reading your substack when you basically volunteered to be the left's Joe Rogan, which I think you were being, you were joking around, but in fairness, because of the influence of podcasts, the right wing Manosphere, and he has such influence that like we heard for a few months after the election from Democrats, oh, if only they had their version of that. Which, again, bringing it up, because at one point he did stand up, even if you don't think he's a stand up. I mean, do you want to be the next Joe Rogan? And is there such could there be such thing as a left Joe Rogan?

No, I think I was sort of making fun of that whole idea of the of the left Joe Rogan, because whatever Joe Rogin is, he did work hard to be Joe Rogan. He started doing podcasts before there was even a word for podcasts. And so I will give Joe Rogan all the credit videos due for like he saw a new media space. He got into it early. But then also. Like when Jon Stewart took over the Daily Show, nobody was like, that's going to be the liberals' Pope. Nobody said that. And yet he became that because so in some sense I'm saying there are people out here right now who are doing good work. And if you want to go find your version of that, go find there's many more, many more people to look at than just one person. And to me, it just gets into like a weird white savior complex.

Yeah, what they're in a way to me saying is a shorthand for we need a version of that kind of guy who conveys a certain kind of authenticity to a certain type of voter that they're imagining, a very specific vision of masculinity that can be deployed at any given time

A man's man with scare quotes. They want a, they want a muscle head guy who likes fighting, but also likes the trans community. They want like the guy who also wants Medicare for all is what they want. Those people exist. The wrestler CM Punk, who's the biggest wrestler in the world is that guy. You know what I mean? He's a left wing, like guy who spends a lot of time in gyms and is literally a professional wrestler doesn't get more bro than that, you know. The problem is the left want that person to be anointed instead of like going to sort of do the work. But there's always this appeal to whiteness and white maleness in this country That is really also baked into the the left's Joe Rogan. We want to know we want our white guy Instead of like you could just be paying more attention to Amber Ruffin who's got podcasts and books and things. You know, you don't have to it doesn't always have to be a white guy.

I'm talking with comedian W. Kamau Bell. We'll be back in a minute.

For people outside the comedy world in this moment, they do feel like it's weirdly a more sensitive conversation than one would expect. When I think about Amber Ruffin losing the gig at the White House Correspondents' Dinner, which is a very, for whatever people think about it, a high profile comedy moment in the last 15 years, right, to get up and deliver that speech. Her not getting to do it, in part because of comments she made on a podcast and the Administration complaining. It's showing that kind of like sensitivity, right? Like the White House Correspondents Association, like not wanting to be divisive, not wanting have on the person who will be satirical in this moment.

Yeah. And to me, first of all, I remember when the White House, when Michelle Wolf performed to the White House Correspondents Dinner and I was actually working at CNN at the time.

I remember. I was there for that. Yeah.

And they actually had me on the on the panel that night. And I was remote. And I remember hearing like whoever was on the panel just being like, Oh, my God, it was so offensive and da da da. And I came on, I was like, what is wrong with everybody. This you hired a comedian to do comedy and the comedian did comedy and you specifically wanted a comedian who would speak truth to power because you can go get lots of comedians who you know are not going to do that, but they want a comedian to both indict the current administration, but also do it in the way that is friendly, which is just a tight rope walk that for me would not be worth it. Like, not the White House Correspondents would ever call me. But fans might like you should do it. I would never take that gig. I don't think there's any percentage in that gig that is worth it for me because to do it, because it's like you're also at this point, you're preaching to this weird choir that doesn't actually want you to do what you do.

And doesn't even want to sing together when you think about who's in the room. Yeah. They're not even people who want to be in the room.

Yeah. Even if I'm a liberal reporter and they're a conservative reporter, we're sort of where it's like a wedding reception. We're all in the same family. So don't make fun of our uncle too much, even though we, I don't agree with my uncle because I still got to see this guy at the cafeteria and I got to see him at the family reunions. And then Amber Ruffin, I want to be so clear, is such the nicest version of that type of comedian. Like she's not, like meanwhile Colbert went up there and burned George W. Bush to the ground, uh, Roy Wood Jr. Amber Ruffin is so great, but also is just clearly a good person in kind that you were not going to, I don't know what the fear was, but to fire her to me says, you are, as the famous quote is, obeying in advance. And I think that is a real testament to that version of the mainstream media is losing teeth in this moment when they should gain teeth and also it also shows that this dinner is not, just don't broadcast it anymore just do it for yourselves. And if you're going to book a bigger comedian you got to let those people do what they do and if they're going turn on those comedians then you're not actually defending the freedom of speech that you claim, because Amber Ruffin is not, you know...

Yeah, although I think Amber had, she was quoted as saying like, you know, she didn't want to both sides it. She really did have strong feelings about the Trump administration.

But that's no surprise, right?

Exactly. It's no surprise, but it's hard. I don' want to defend them. I've never actually been in the White House Correspondence Association, even as I've been a journalist for a long time, but I have been to the dinner like 10 times. And I can tell you, each year, it's like, ugh going to this thing is just a weird stress because the public hates it. And so you're like, I'm having this rubber dinner in the super spreader hotel. Yeah, I don't know why it's televised. I don' know what people get out of it. I do know that it was comedians in a way who put it on the map and comedians who, they were doing political satire. So to your point, the comedy world also positioned itself as being more than willing to go out there and as you said, burn it to the ground. And I think people thought it was funny when it was the journalists, I don't know how much they think it's funny now when the politics of the moment has changed and things feel less funny.

Well, but that's the funny thing is like things feel less funny for the journalists, which means they're more funny for comedians. And this is when comedians do what we do, which is why I did the Kennedy center. Oh, you like when Trump said that the Kennedy Center had gotten too wokey, I'm like, Oh, I know I'm doing the gig now you thought it was wokey before I'm going to go in there and be as woke as I want to be. And you can't, and maybe you can stop me, but I'm gonna be stopped. I'm not going to stop myself. So to me again, it's about this obeing in advance thing. And I feel like right now the cancelation of Amber Ruffin is obeying in advance. It is not in any way making you look like an independent voice.

'It's funny, I have to reveal something now, which is that this year I'm going because of you. Basically, I had not planned on going because it's the whole mishigas was like, I don't need this, you know, I'm not even in the association why stress myself out. And then my mother, W. Kamau Bell was like but did you hear about that W. Kamau Bell in the Kennedy Center? Yeah. And she went into a whole thing. She went into the whole thing Honestly, she went into, and as someone who's ex-NPR, I'm very big with the moms, but in this case, my mother told me that you still did your show and that you can't let people make you feel like you don't belong. And honestly, I wrestled with it for a very long time. What do you think of someone out there, that being the takeaway?

Part of that is about there are multiple ways to express dismay in dismaying times. Like there's boycott, which is like, I'm not going to give business there. There's protests where you stand outside and make an angry noise. There's rally where you sit outside and making joyful noise. There's sit in where you go inside and say, I am not leaving until you give me what I want. And there's ways in which you go inside and go, I'm going to make it as uncomfortable as you as I can by going inside and speaking my truth, which is what I was trying to do. And according to the people who were there and even the New York Times the next day, I did that. So I sit back and go, I I did what I'm supposed to do and I and then later I started looking into other artists and I found Sweet Honey in the Rock who. When North Carolina did the bathroom bills about, you know, you have to go to the bathroom of your assigned whatever your birth certificate. A lot of musical artists canceled on North Carolina and Sweet Honey in the Rock, who is known for being an activist of all black women a cappella group, went in and said, no, we need to go and sing there for our community who's still there. And so I think that the idea of being like, if you step away, that's the bravest choice. To me, it's like, oh, we don't even know our history if we're just, if we think that the only way to do something is to step away.

It's fascinating to me that you hold on to that term Wokey like jokingly, you know, and you talk about your style of comedy and it does occur to me that it is like it's a difficult thing to be right now.

We've taken the fun out of woke, which the whole idea is like, when black people come up with stuff, it is embedded with fun, even if it comes from pain.

Can you talk about that more? Because I think people think of the term woke now, it's completely divorced from its origins. And as you said now, it has come to mean something really different.

So the origins of woke as far as the earliest version of it is from Lead Belly, the blues singer blues is pain turned into joy. That's what blues is. And so it makes sense that like a blues singer would be using a term that it was like all woke is saying is like, pay attention black folks, America is not on your side, but turning it into something that is like, hey stay woke. And turning it to something that sounds cool and hip. And it's also sort of like in its earliest origins, white people are going to hear that and not know what it means. So it's coded language, which is most of what black American English is, is coded language that now white people sort of are actively trying to get to. But like the idea being that like woke was just a way of saying, pay attention. Just because we demonize woke, it doesn't mean that all around this country, black people aren't telling other black people to pay attention to the world. We'll come up with another phrase. Maybe we won't let it go viral on the Internet, but we'll always be coming up with ways to tell each other be careful out there.

I think at the end of the day, I'm wondering if you feel like you're approaching your comedy differently, because you've done so many different forms of, I think, communicating with the public, as you said, through documentaries, through podcasts, through your TV show. And I think the latest comedy tour is called Who's With Me, right?

'Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

So what's your mission statement there in a way, right? It's a call to action is what I hear, but is there more?

Yeah, I mean, I think it I think of it as the flip side of Kendrick Lamar's They Not like Us, like who's on the right side of history, who's on the wrong side of the history. And just cause you're with me, doesn't mean we agree all the time, but this means generally we want to be on the right side of history and, and it's also it's a positive call to action. Who's with me. Like we're all together here right now. I think a lot of people feel alone and feel like confused. It's like, well, let's all each just come together and we can figure it out together. So yeah, I It's funny you say that like throughout this conversation, there's a lot of talk about how hard it is to do comedy. And for me, it's never been clearer what the assignment is. I've never been more clear about how I should be doing comedy, what I should be saying. The jokes are sort of fighting themselves when JD Vance, an avatar of masculinity can't hold a football trophy. You're like, thank you, the universe. You know what I mean? So like, it really clear. I feel like I'm just trying to keep up with the pace of the news.

But is that common in your group chats? Are they, as you said, understanding the assignment, feeling like this is the time to be forceful in how they speak publicly, the kinds of jokes they're doing?

Among my small group of comedians, because I'm not in a bunch of group chats with comedians I have like maybe one.

'I don't know how comedians work. I just yeah, I mean to me it's like it's in this moment where certainly in the entertainment c-suites. It's like that's enough of that You know what? I mean if you think about like Disney kind of taking a hit and people just be like we're not going to do this anymore all that PC stuff. We've got to get back to X

Yeah, are you thinking about a network letting go of a show that was about a Black man traveling the country and people coming together and talking across differences and then deciding we don't need that anymore?

Not so much. Yeah. Yeah, there's let's vibe shift. Let's say there's a hypothetical vibe shift.

'So I would say this, like two years ago, I had a two year plan that was based on having a business relationship with a major entertainment corporation that was like, this is what we're going to do with you over the next two years. And that went away. So then I was like what am I going to do. And that's what I was, like, thank God, I still have it in me to be a stand-up comedian because that's all I can sort of book the gigs myself or me and my team can. It is on me to write the material. I don't have to wait for showbiz to give me permission to do things. So I feel really grateful that I developed an independent skill separate from the levers of show business so that I can still go out here and feed my family and still feel like I'm doing good work, it's not like I'm a juggler in my regular life. I can do the kind of work that I would be doing on TV, but in a stand-up comedy setting. So for me, I can sort of make my own gravy, is how I put it. I feel bad for people in this business, especially- Black folks and creators of color who are not in the same position to make your own gravy. If you're just a film director and you're waiting for a film to be greenlit you're in trouble And so for me This goes back to my mom I think I feel like when I think about my mom my dad and my grandfather, he had three different jobs to make rent to pay the bills and then his community work I'm just doing the same things Smith Cheatham was doing I got I got nine different jobs to feed my kids, but i'm also still doing the community work.

And also you've written that you believe in showing up when the scrutiny gets, I think the term was most scrutinous.

Yes. It sounds like me.

Yeah, it sounds like something you would say, that in this moment, you're not feeling like the spotlight is too hot, like you're gonna keep doing what you're doing. One more for your mom and mine, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Have you surprised yourself in this moment about your showing up? Like, are there ways that you hope she's proud of you?

'Oh, for sure, so I talked about the Hands Off rally in Oakland. This was the one from like two weeks ago. And somebody reached out to me and said, do you want to do this? Do you want to speak at the hands-off rally? And I feel very strange about being in a position of like speaking at a protest because it's just like.

Yeah

I'm not professionally an activist. And I didn't respond to the email because I was just sort of wrestling with it in my head. And then my friend Pastor Michael McBride, who's a local community activist here, who's literally like my guy who I go to if I need help or he comes to me if he needs some fame, my modicum of fame. He basically called me up that morning. He's like, hey, man, what are you doing today? He's, like, I'm picking you up at one. We're going to thing. You're going to speak. OK, Pastor Mike. So Pastor Mike started telling me that's what you're doing. I'm like, if Pastor Mike wants me to do it, i'm doing it, because he's my guy. And then I got there and I spoke and said some things and I tried to be very I always try to be very humble and like, give it up for everybody and thank you for being here. Afterwards, I'm leaving and I hear somebody say, Kamau. And I turn around and it's my mom, who had been at the protest. I did not know she was at the protests. She was just a face in the crowd that I did not see. And in that moment, I was like, how'd I do mom? And she was very, and she let me know that when she was very proud of what I had done. And I loved the fact that it happened. I didn't know I was performing for her, but I was. It was like this, I'm only here because of what i've learned from my family. So it wasn't my mom who made me be there, but basically my mom placed me there. And then she walked her 87 year old self down from her apartment to the protest. Didn't know I was going to be there. And then suddenly her son is on stage doing this thing. So for me, I definitely want my mom to be proud of me and I want her to be engaged in it and to see I've taken over the family business.

Well, W. Kamau Bell, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us.

Thank you for having me, it was great to talk to you.

This episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN Audio, was produced by Jesse Remedios. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez, Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is executive producer of CNN Audio. We had support from Dan Bloom, Madeleine Thompson, Haley Thomas, Alex Manessari, Robert Mathers, Jon Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. I'm Audie Cornish and if you enjoyed this show, please go ahead, hit follow and more importantly share. We love getting new listeners and thank you for being with us this week.