Honestly, it's overwhelming trying to figure out which batch of federal workers we should be paying attention to. So many are being fired and sometimes rehired from so many different agencies. It's hard to keep track. For example, the U.S. Department of Agriculture rehired probationary employees, including firefighters fired by DOGE.

What the American taxpayers need to know is it costs money to actually fire people, and it costs money to bring people on. And so this is the the definition of inefficiency.

And the ripple effects of these cuts across government are likely to have unintended consequences, what you might call known unknowns.

You still have to have the people who work all year round, who are working on budget, who are doing training in the off season, who are looking strategically at what improvements need to be made. Do we need to do some trail improvements? Do we need road access? Do we need to repair roads? Right. And so the people planning and looking ahead and planning that out one season, two seasons, three seasons...

Mass firings by DOGE have affected scores of workers in the Interior Department. People who clear trails, pick up trash, keep national parks running. And yes, the departments that monitor, protect and fight against wildfire. So as we enter one of the busiest seasons for America's public parks and forests, what happens next? What are the potential consequences of having fewer people to keep the gates open? Fewer people to watch out for or even fight wildfire. I'm Audie Cornish, and this is the Assignment.

The last time we spoke to Riva Duncan, it was about fighting fires in the age of climate change. And she's been in forestry for more than 30 years, serving in the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management. We called her back up because while we were researching this episode about federal job cuts, her name came up in a story about the end of DEI, a program she works with called the Women in Wildland Fire Advisory Council, was dropped by the U.S. Forest Service because one of the president's executive orders bans any contract related to diversity, equity, and inclusion.

The number of women in federal wildland firefighting is around 10%. So it's not like all these women have come in and taken all these jobs, right?

But this is a bittersweet time for her because she also works at an advocacy group called the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters, which has long called for higher pay. And this week, they got it in the short term funding bill passed by the House. She says the uncertainty of all this is the problem. Which programs are cut and why? It doesn't always make sense. And she says even when they rehire workers. That doesn't mean that damage hasn't already been done.

And for some of those folks who were actually fired, they lived in government housing. Particularly in these more remote rural areas.

Yeah.

And so they had to leave their government housing. So many of them had to then leave the area because they had nowhere else to live. And so saying that, well, we're going to bring you back on, you know, a lot of those people probably won't be able to come back on. They may have already found other jobs. There's so much uncertainty still about there's 45 days that could last. And so are they going to be fired again?

I've been researching this, trying to understand how this affects the average person. Right. Especially something like the Bureau of Land Management, which people might not feel applies to them.

Right.

But if you visit national parks, if you want the trails to be maintained, if you want wildfires to be suppressed wherever you fall in that conversation. What are some of the other sort of places where it hits all of us?

Well, we have what are called watersheds. And so those are identified areas with streams, rivers, watersheds provide drinking water to communities, cities across the US. And so there are people who make sure that the water coming out of these watersheds, coming off of public lands is fit to enter water treatment plants, right. So drinking water, everybody needs drinking water. And then we have, like you said, all the recreation. We have campgrounds, we have museums, we have visitor sites. And, you know, making sure somebody is cleaning the bathrooms of the campgrounds and picking up the trash and the reservation system so people can go camping.

And if those things don't happen, do they just close? This is one of the questions people are asking now because you had like, you have national parks that have been seeing record breaking crowds and visitations in the last year. Thinking about coming out of the pandemic where people wanted to be outdoors. So how does uncertainty over staffing, even the basics or the more complicated things? How does that affect kind of even long term stability?

Those programs a lot of places have already started to restrict. So visitor centers where you can get your maps, you can talk to a ranger about where to hike and what's safe, what's not, what the weather is. So they're limiting their hours. They're limiting their days. We're already seeing that happening. Some recreation areas are being closed because they don't have anybody to staff them. But we also think about search and rescue, right. If somebody gets hurt recreating in the backcountry, who's going to be there to render aid, right. And so it's far reaching. And again, I think this is great because a lot of people just don't understand.

Plenty of Republican supporters of the president have said, look, we're still going to hire seasonal workers, and seasonal workers will solve this. Will seasonal workers solve the issues you're talking about?

No, I mean, they will help. They will contribute. But we need the permanent workforce. Who does this for a living who has the experience, who understands how to manage some of these really complex areas and...

Even you've been seasonal, right? You're someone who, like, has expertise. You come in and help and then you go back to your life like, why isn't that a solution?

It's a partial solution. It's it's like they go hand in hand. They're interconnected. And so, you know, the seasonal workforce, like I said, you need to ramp up when you need them. And then you can scale them back down when you don't. That's an efficient thing to do. But you still have to have the people who work all year round, who are working on budget, who are doing training in the off season, who are looking strategically at what improvements need to be made. Do we need to do some trail improvements? Do we need road access? Do we need to repair roads. Right. And so the people planning and looking ahead and planning that out one season, two seasons, three seasons, those are a lot of the people who've been fired. Biologist who are, you know, who are looking at environmental laws and policies that we must follow before we can do around disturbing treatments. You know, they're they're working to make sure we're not compromising, reflecting endangered species. Right. And so there's just this whole group of people that that work all year round doing all kinds of things. And then you do bring in this seasonal workforce when the summer happens. Usually what? Sometimes, like when I worked in Florida, it was the winter that was our season. When most people came to visit, it wasn't so hot.

They want to visit the Everglades or whatever, right? Could we reach a breaking point where access to these lands is no longer guaranteed? Not in the way we've enjoyed in the past?

I do think so. And I think that if some decisions aren't made quickly about the workforce, that we could see that as early as this, this summer. There's also talk and speculation that this is a way to show the agencies to set them up, to fail, to then say, look, you're terrible at managing these lands because that's been an argument for decades about who could manage these lands better, right? State or private. And so there's speculation that this is a way to set up the agencies to fail. So then that the naysayers can say, see, we told you you couldn't do it, and it's more efficient to take those lands out of federal hands and put them somewhere else.

Riva, that's really intriguing because I've been talking about privatization and the voices within the Trump administration that say we need to privatize the economy. Usually people talk about this in the context of the VA, but you're telling me workers in your world are also thinking about this? Can you say more?

You know, there are some states that have expressed interest in managing federal lands. They think they can do a better job. And so there's speculation from that end point. But then also true privatization, where these federal lands would just be sold off to corporations, billionaires, businesses, and they wouldn't have to make these lands public anymore.

But we're not saying they're going to sell Yosemite. We're just saying that on this path to, let's say, a public private partnership to maintain these lands. There is concern in your world about where it ends.

Right.

I want to talk more about where this plays into firefighting. Can you talk about some of the other sort of the other attrition that is having ripple effects specifically around the area of wildfire, which we're pretty concerned about going into this season?

Well, I'll give you some examples. During the fires in Southern California back in January, going back again to the seasonal workforce, people had been laid off because that's largely the off season for most of the West. And so those folks who work all year round, who made have been a timber marker, or a wildlife biologist or a hydrologist filled in on engines and crews that were then sent to Southern California to help in the suppression effort.

So again, these are titles on the budget line, right, that aren't sort of sexy and obvious. You know, as a firefighter.

Right. They're not primary fire, but they hold fire training and qualifications and they fill in. And so again, we're looking at losing that valuable part of the workforce. And there's a whole...it's called the incident command system. There's this whole system that supports the wildland firefighters on the ground doing the suppression work. And there are logistic experts, public affairs officers, people who track all the financial calls because it is it's costly. It costs to fight fire. And they work behind the scenes to support this effort, particularly on these large fires that lasts for several days or weeks. And we're losing those folks. Right. And so that just puts very, very large strain on the system and our partners and cooperators who we fight fire with. States and local governments are concerned and saying, well, wait a minute. This affects too, because we're all trying to do this together and they support us just just as much as we support them. So that's concerning going into what probably is going to be another very active and maybe, you know, damaging fire season.

One of the reasons why we spoke to you is because not only do you do this work, you've been a firefighter, you've also been part of a movement to draw more women into the system. How has the work you have been doing to kind of bring more women into the world of firefighting, been affected by recent Trump administration orders around diversity, equity, inclusion? Has this your work fallen under that portfolio and what's happened since?

Right. So the both the Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service have been holding boot camps for young women. To try this out, to see if this is a profession they would like to pursue, and it brings young women in and we call it women's boot camps. But it's open to anybody. And there are men who are trainers and and it's people who believes that diversity is valuable and that it makes us better, and that there's a place for everybody in this workforce. And all those have been canceled. They've even taken down the website. The number of women in federal wildland firefighting is around 10%. So it's not like all these women have come in and taken all these jobs. Right? It's it's something that has been an issue and a lot of us have been striving for to bring more women into the profession and keep them in the profession. And we're not giving these young women an opportunity to see if this is something they'd like to do for a profession.

I know you've heard this argument before, but when I think to some of the Trump administration's executive orders, the critique of diversity, equity and inclusion programs at that is that they're exclusionary and that they're kind of a waste of time, that basically a woman who does regular firefighter training should be fine. She doesn't need her own special bootcamp. And that that's a waste. How do you respond to that?

Well, the fact of the matter is, in in male dominated professions, bias, whether it's conscious or unconscious and downright harassment are still happening. They're alive and well. And so these opportunities to bring young women in, to build up their confidence, tell them what what is appropriate, what is not, that they have rights that they don't have to put up with these things is really critical to retaining them into the workforce. And so we want to create this place where they know that they have rights, that there are people who do support it, that it's a safe place for them, and to show the rest of the profession how much we value that and that there's no place for bias or harassment.

Your career has grown up alongside these departments land management, wildland firefighters, as we mentioned, even as a woman, the sort of diversity efforts you've been involved in. Does it feel like some aspect of kind of the legacy of what you've been doing is being is crumbling in front of you? Do you feel like there are things they're doing now that can't be clawed back? That will really change the nature of the work?

Yeah. It's heartbreaking. I mean, I'm brokenhearted over it because I'm really proud of my service to the country and to the American taxpayers. I'm proud of the work I did in the federal workforce, traveling all over and fighting fires. And so it really makes me feel sad that that's not recognized. And I don't mean like, recognize Pat on the back, but that our workforce, these agencies I love are or being just gutted, you know, for no reason. And like I said, my fear is they're being set up to fail. I've shed tears about it. I mean, I my group, we've had some really serious conversations where we've all been really upset because we're all current or former career wildland fire fighters, right? We've all done this work because we loved it and we love being government. We love being employees where we serve the public.

When I think about where national parks are different parts of the country, a lot of these are actually red state, so to speak, meaning they they lean Republican. They voted for Donald Trump. Do you think that there is lack of sympathy when they're out in these states? I don't know what you're hearing. Like, if you get fired in a place I voted for Trump, I think the response is good, right? Like that. You are part of the problem.

Yeah, we're seeing where there's a lot of support and that's been wonderful. But I was just talking to one of my former coworkers who lives out West, and she said that the local community is actually laughing at them and making fun of them, and they think it's great that they're being fired. Right. And so that's just it's just tragic, right? This is sad that that people are happy about people losing their jobs. Right. And I'll tell you, you know, the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, it's mostly in Tennessee. It's partly in North Carolina where I live. Tennessee is very red, right? And it is the most visited national park in the nation. More people go to that national park than any other national park in the country, and they are looking at getting their workforce slashed. And a lot of the communities in and around the national park depend on visitors, hotels and restaurants and bars. And they should be concerned. They should be very concerned about what this is going to do to their local economy. And I think the locals see it, but I don't know if it's gotten. It doesn't seem to have gotten the attention of some of these Republican legislators.

So you think there's a reality check of sorts coming this summer? Do you think we're actually going to feel this difference? Or will the seasonal worker solution kind of cover it up? What's your thinking?

I think we'll see it. I do think that these agencies were just notified of a voluntary buyout, and then we're told that a reduction in force is coming next. And so that's just going to be more positions slashed. Right. And so I think I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet. And I think we're going to see that right when summer starts, where tourist season and also wildfire season starts to peak. And it's going to be kind of, to me, a perfect storm of of the effects of what all of this is going to have.

Well, Riva Duncan, thank you so much for talking with us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Audie, really appreciate you having me back.

That's Riva Duncan of the advocacy group Grassroots Wildland Firefighters. Now, Riva also mentioned the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. This is the most visited national park in the country. We're talking more than 12 million visitors a year. CNN's Bill Weir was just there. And so we're going to talk to him next. Stay with us.

Earlier this month, the outfitting company Wildland Trekking finally got its first permits back for Smoky Mountain National Park after Hurricane Helene.

They lead about 10,000 trips a year and 19 states there and other countries as well. But they're sort of the cream of the crop. And so they get these golden ticket passes in the in the permit system. Before others, they've sort of earned that.

'CNN chief climate correspondent Bill Weir was doing some reporting on this, and he says it should have been a moment of relief, because for Wildland Trekking, that permit isn't just about guiding hikers. It's about staying in business. And now potential cuts to the National Park Service are a new thing to worry about, because that could affect local economies built on outdoor recreation-- the outfitters, small businesses, entire towns who rely on these destinations to make a living for them. The impact isn't theoretical. It's happening right now. But Bill's story started out with a guide who was actually there when Hurricane Helene rolled in.

And so he hustled his group across the swirling river, and they got back to Asheville. And then they saw the River arch District was underwater. And he spent the next week in search and rescue mode, because suddenly a guy who knew how to get around in the mountains without GPS was very valuable. And so for him, it was really emotional, leading the first trip back out and introducing a new crop of folks. Some were first timers, you know, first time overnight campers. So I had this on their bucket list. A pair of brothers from new Jersey. There was a student from North Carolina State who had just been in Washington lobbying her senators. It was just a really wonderful, eclectic mix of folks who wanted to get out in a nature not the best time. It's still chilly. The leaves have yet to pop. But yeah, this is the Blue Ridge Parkway and brings a lot of folks up there. And it's in the charter. This is one of the few national parks. It's free. It's guaranteed free to everybody. So it makes it the most popular one. And they were worried about not just the the effects of a warming world, but what these new cuts are doing to protecting our natural lands, caring for these, these shared places.

We were talking with a former wildland firefighter, but I'm really glad you're bringing in this other perspective. You mentioned golden ticket outfitters, and I know this is kind of a real thing, right? Where if anyone's been parked in a long line outside a national park, you know that when it's really popular, when it's a really popular site, it's not so easy, even if it's free. Right? Just because the maintenance, the getting in. Are are they thinking about the business, so to speak? Because it's not just them, it's the towns around. It's, you know, a outdoorsman ship, which clearly I'm an outdoors person. It's big business.

'Absolutely. Yeah. Wildland trekking the co-founder told me they've lost just in the last three years, about $1 million worth of business and cancellations from the wildfires out west, from Helene, the hurricanes in the east. And this they have to assess risk risk completely differently. This outfitting shop, second gear, iconic gear shop for kayakers and mountain bikers in Asheville was washed away in the flood waters. And then on top of that, just when our public spaces need extra tender love and care, need trail repairs now. Bridges are out. Like a year 2000 mudslides just in Helene. You've got the DOGE cuts which are going after forestry folks, parks department folks.

'Can you say that again? They lost a million in business. I hadn't thought of that, that these things, both the the escalating natural disasters and then this sort of self-imposed cuts, right, coming from the federal government that they change the nature of risk itself in this world. Right?

Totally. And if your customer base are bucket listers who save up for years to go on a really epic vacation, maybe they want to go hiking out west, it's increasingly likely it'll be too hot to hike it, you know, and they've chosen that that vacation week, right? Or there'll be a wildfire smoke to think about. Or in this case, nobody imagined a hurricane in the Smoky Mountains in Appalachia, to the extent that it was a basically a thousand year flood. So yeah, there's that. And then there's the quality of the public lands and whether they're cared for as well. And, you know, the crowds, as you mentioned, we're getting to a place now where after Covid, a reservation system makes complete sense in a place like Yosemite, where the valley is really a small spot and everybody wants that same Instagram shot of El Capitan and the Half Dome and the bridal veil falls. But that now, as a result of these cuts to that, that reservation system is down indefinitely. And the worry is it'll be chaos. And we saw a little of that during a government shutdown in the first Trump administration, where people were four wheeling across the Death Valley National Park and knocking over Joshua trees. And that was the big worry. I also heard from these guides and outdoor industry folks, is we need people to guard the gates to to be first responders. If somebody needs to be helped out of a park part because of the heat or anything else. Oftentime your Ranger is the only first responder within thousands of miles square miles. And and so there's a real concern in that whole industry.

Did you hear anything from people in this community about their concerns about the park not opening or the park kind of having less staffing, like how that would affect this upcoming season where you're like just getting the new permits out?

I think everyone there is still wrapping their minds around what is happening and who was laid off. It's sort of an indiscriminate anybody who has less than three years of constant employment. A lot of people are seasonal. They've been there for 20 years, but not in a row, you know, and so they don't know who's going to be lost. If that means, just by necessity, having to shut down some parts of the park, losing interpreters who work with kids, losing folks who manage the restrooms, you know, and just infrastructure stuff, all of that is up in the air. So what they worry about is, is anarchy, is that there's not nearly enough staff for the crowds that'll show up. You know, if you just don't have the manpower to the rangers, the interpreters, the helpers, the first responders, people could get hurt. And the park itself could suffer.

Did you think that this story would touch your beat?

I did, because the first time around, Trump really went after environmental regulation and UN at every level. And there's there's always this big tug of war in the national parks about, you know, uranium mining next to the Grand Canyon or even new minerals needed for EVs in some sacred places out west. Or there's always that. But it's interesting that Bristol Bay, Alaska, was pretty much saved from the pebble copper mine because Don junior went fishing up there and fell in love with the place. So it's very capricious. We don't know what is going to be protected and what what isn't in this world. But wow is it under siege.

Bill Weir, CNN's chief climate correspondent.

The Assignment is a production of CNN audio, and this episode was produced by Lori Galarreta. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dzula is our technical director. And Steve Lickteig is executive producer of CNN audio. We had support from Dan Bloom, Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru, Lisa Namerow and Osman Noor. As always, thank you so much for listening. Please subscribe. Please share. It means a lot.