Scribble

David Rind

00:00:00

This is One Thing, I'm David Rind, and America has unfinished business on the moon.

Pam Melroy

00:00:06

I think everybody thought we were going to go out into the solar system after Apollo, but the truth is we really weren't ready.

President John F. Kennedy

00:00:14

I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth.

David Rind

00:00:26

President John F. Kennedy said that in May, 1961. Eight years later.

Radio transmission

00:00:32

Tanguality base here, the Eagle has landed.

David Rind

00:00:36

NASA met Kennedy's deadline with a few months to spare.

Reporter

00:00:39

Sunday, July 20th, 1969, around the world nearly a billion people watch this moment on television.

Radio transmission

00:00:46

This is one small step for man. One giant leap for mankind.

David Rind

00:00:55

The U.S. had shattered the Soviet Union's domination in space. American ingenuity had triumphed.

Reporter

00:01:01

Before Project Apollo ended, six additional flights to the moon were made, and all but one were highly successful.

David Rind

00:01:08

At the time, there seemed to be no limit to the United States' space exploration ambitions.

President Richard Nixon

00:01:13

As we explore the reaches of space, let us go to the new worlds together, not as new worlds to be conquered, but as a new adventure to be shared.

Radio transmission

00:01:28

Obvioulsy a major malfunction.

David Rind

00:01:30

Well, that's not exactly how it played out. The space shuttle program would undertake 135 missions over the course of 30 years, two of which, though, the Columbia and Challenger would end in tragedy.

Reporter

00:01:42

Appears to be a major catastrophe in America's space program. Challenger, only seconds after leaving the launch pad, according to NASA, has exploded in midair.

David Rind

00:01:55

Space tourism became the early focus of private space companies like Virgin Galactic, SpaceX and Blue Origin. Richard Branson, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos began throwing their weight and money around in a sort of billionaire space race. NASA now relies on them for critical equipment and knowledge. And ever since the Apollo program, human spaceflight has largely been limited to trips back and forth from the International Space Station. Humans have not been in the Well, NASA has a plan to change all that, and a critical test flight could lift off as soon as this week.

Reid Wiseman

00:02:33

We're ready, the rocket is ready. We are ready. NASA is ready, this vehicle is definitely ready to go. We went through the plane.

David Rind

00:02:39

'The Artemis 2 mission will send astronauts Reid Wiseman, Victor Glover, Christina Koch, and Canda's Jeremy Hansen on a 10-day trip around the moon. The NASA hopes will lead to an eventual settlement on the moon and one day, Mars.

Victor Glover

00:02:53

This mission is much more about duty and responsibility so we can pass the batons off for this campaign called Artemis with its lofty goals. And we live that every day.

David Rind

00:03:04

Is this mission even safe? What does this push say about the Trump administration's space ambitions? And will Americans even care? Let's turn to someone who has actually, you know, been to space. Pam Melroy is a former astronaut. She has logged more than 38 days in space and was one of just two women to command a space shuttle mission. She was appointed NASA deputy administrator during the Biden administration. So, Pam, can you just explain what this Artemis II mission is all about? Like, what are we gonna see here?

Pam Melroy

00:03:31

'Yeah, it's really going to be exciting. So Artemis is really the follow-on in a lot of ways to Apollo. I think everybody thought we were going to go out into the solar system after Apollo, but the truth is we really weren't ready. We had a lot to learn about safely putting people in space, long duration flights, et cetera, and we've done that through the space shuttle and the space station missions. So we are still dealing with the same physics and the same technical problems that Apollo dealt with. And so we're gonna take it one bite at a time, not try to land on the first attempt. So think of this as the first test flight for the Artemis program. Actually, there was one uncrewed test flight that proved out the rocket and many aspects of the spacecraft called Orion. But in this case, the primary focus is on the crew and the crew systems, and also to test out some of the other systems like the ability. To reenter all the way from the Moon, which is much faster than coming back from low Earth orbit.

David Rind

00:04:34

'Okay, so this is the first step in like a multi-stage kind of process within the Artemis umbrella but this time there are humans on board and they're going around the moon and back, is that right?

Pam Melroy

00:04:46

That's right, and for those of you who are Apollo fans, you may remember the Apollo 8 mission. It's a very distinctive patch, because it was a figure eight. So leaving Earth orbit to go around the moon and then come back to Earth. And it's somewhat of a similar profile, but they are doing additional testing to particularly the environmental system, but also they're gonna stay in orbit for about a day and they're going to practice. Rendezvous and proximity operations to a part of the rocket. So the way it works is spacecraft sits on top of the rocket, you separate, and then the spacecraft goes and does its own thing. But when the time comes to go down to the surface of the moon, that vehicle will have to dock with a lander. And so the opportunity to test out the systems to do that rendezvous, and preparation for docking. They're going to practice that on a piece of the rock at the upper stage.

David Rind

00:05:47

Well, so you kind of talked about this, but didn't we put humans back on the moon? Let me check my notes here. In 1972, like why haven't we been back since?

Pam Melroy

00:05:56

'Well, I'll tell you, the thing is that Apollo was an exciting program, but it was never actually designed to be sustainable, and quite frankly, it was dangerous. I mean, if you look at Apollo 1, we lost the crew on the pad during a test, and Apollo 13, where we very nearly did lose the crew. So I think we are much more prepared now from the shuttle and the station program to understand what are the riskiest parts of the mission. And we're really going to go to stay this time, build a moon base, practice- Build a moonbase? Build a Moon base, yes. And stay and practice living and working on another planet, gaining more science, but it's really in preparation for going on to Mars and then eventually other destinations in the solar system.

David Rind

00:06:47

'So it seems like this is kind of a makeup for lost time, like the shortcomings you described in the Apollo program. Now we've gained some technology, gained some know-how, and they're gonna try to really make it go at really exploring the moon in hope of going even further.

Pam Melroy

00:07:03

'That's exactly right. It really took know-how in both operations and technology to make this happen, but we are finally ready to do it.

David Rind

00:07:12

Well, so this is only the second time, if I'm not mistaken, this particular rocket will actually fly and in 2022, before Artemis 1, NASA assessed there was a 1 in 125 chance that the Orion spacecraft would be lost. I'm no rocket scientist, I'm a former astronaut, but those odds sound less than ideal. Like just how risky is this?

Pam Melroy

00:07:32

It's still pretty risky. The reduction of risk from the first uncrewed test has made a significant difference. I'm very familiar with the numbers you talked about because I was deputy at the time. Artemis II is going to have additional risk because of new systems, the environmental systems had not been checked out on the first test flight, but in addition to that, the heat shield was untested on Artemis I. That did reduce some risk, but it never reduces all the risk. It is definitely a risky endeavor.

David Rind

00:08:09

I mean, obviously NASA feels confident enough to go ahead with the mission though.

Pam Melroy

00:08:13

Well, let me just put it in context. On the space shuttle program, the risk was about one in 90 and we went on. A lot of it is about knowing what the most dangerous pieces are and then focusing all of your risk mitigation on that. Like, you know, you get close to the edge, you have a failure, you come home. That's gonna be harder from the moon. It used to be just coming back from low Earth orbit. It's not a quick trip. No, it isn't a quick trip, but there are some designs in the system. For example, you know, the system can tolerate a depressurization and the crew could come back in their suits if they had to. We hope that doesn't happen.

David Rind

00:08:56

Alright, we gotta take a break. When we come back, can Americans still be inspired by spaceflight? Stick around. Well, this is all happening under the Trump administration, where you have like a lot of factors swirling around. You have a guy like Elon Musk, who has had a really on and off again relationship with the administration, trying to make SpaceX a major player. They are reportedly planning a major IPO. You have Space Force, which is an actual branch of the military at this point, thanks to Trump. I guess I'm wondering, what do you think the administration sees as the purpose of space exploration right now?

Pam Melroy

00:09:42

'That's a really good question. I think, you know, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and we go to space because it's the only place that we can do certain things. So let's kind of unpack that a little bit. The first thing is clearly science. Our telescopes will only give us so much information at a distance. But there's also an aspect of national posture. The problems that we have to solve are incredibly challenging and they have multiple spin-off capabilities. If the nation has those capabilities, they have economic impacts, such as you mentioned SpaceX. Our commercial space industry is a powerhouse in the world. People are envious of how our commercial space industry is so incredibly capable. But on top of that, if you look, for example, back at Apollo, software engineering didn't exist. NASA had to invent it. Well, a decade later, that investment showed up in the internet and the development of the internet. So those are the kinds of national capabilities that it brings. And finally, inspiration. I'll tell you what, when kids see people going around the moon and believe that they could do that too, it will unleash a whole generation of scientists, aviators, engineers, just like it did in Apollo.

David Rind

00:11:05

Yeah, I want to get to that part, the inspiration part, in a second. But you mentioned these private companies, and NASA has become very reliant on them, like they literally can't do these missions without them. The new NASA administrator, Jared Eichmann, has had some tough words for these private companies. You know, he said recently they can expect uncomfortable action if they underperform on their contracts and cause big delays, slow down some of these plans they have. Do you have any sense of what that uncomfortable action would look like?

Pam Melroy

00:11:33

Well, this is a long history. I think NASA is actually very proud of the fact that they've enabled so much, they've gambled on companies that were able to perform. It is much harder than most people think. And you may say that it is true, for example, going to the space station, NASA relies on those commercial companies, but trust me, they didn't do it without NASA's help. They also rely heavily on NASA. So NASA invested in this, but when a company, even after years of investment and help, is not performing, then just like any other contractor, they need to be ready to have their contracts canceled and the bet laid on a different company.

David Rind

00:12:18

I was gonna say is like, is there a power imbalance at all when you talk about that relationship or is there kind of like a push pull because both sides kind of need each other to do the work?

Pam Melroy

00:12:29

'It's definitely more of a push-pull. I think it can be perceived as an imbalance because NASA is a government agency and they're not gonna get out there and talk about the company. That's not what a good partner does strategically, but these companies feel very free to tell NASA and the rest of the world how fabulous they are and what NASA should be doing, usually with an eye to their own. Uh... Outcomes that they're looking for uh... To make their businesses successful so they're much louder but what's really going on behind the scenes is a partnership and it is a push-pull

David Rind

00:13:08

It can be easy to be cynical about this stuff, right? Especially when we're talking about politics and contracts and all this dry kind of stuff. But we're taking about going to the literal far side of the moon. Like as someone who has been in space, logged so much time up there, commanded a space shuttle, can you just explain what it's like to witness something with your own eyes that just so few people have actually seen?

Pam Melroy

00:13:32

Yes, there's very few of our colleagues left who have witnessed that, but the inspiration of looking at the far side of the moon looks so different. It's exposed to a lot more meteor activity. It's very harsh and unforgiving. But the science that we can get from looking at that and eventually when we land on the south pole of the Moon where we think there's water and other volatiles, that is going be. I mean it's the wonder what's the way you feel when you look at a james webb space telescope picture.

David Rind

00:14:06

Yeah, those are pretty wild, even just like on my computer. Have you seen Project Hail Mary? I haven't seen the movie, I read the book twice.

Pam Melroy

00:14:14

Like straight through twice

David Rind

00:14:16

Yes, I ripped through it as well. I've seen the movie like many, many others. It's a huge hit. But I think what has made it such a hit, besides Ryan Gosling being, you know, Ryan Goslings, is that it does have like a message of hope and wonder about the universe at a time when things feel honestly mostly terrible. And that's comforting and I don't want to discount that. But like I said, it could be easy to be cynical. I'm a pretty cynical person when it comes to some of this stuff. So do you really think that like Americans are going to look at this mission and Think about the billionaire forces that are undergirding some of this stuff and might wonder why are we wasting all this money, these billions of dollars on this stuff? Like, aren't there more pressing concerns like my gas prices? Is there really going to be wonder and awe out there for Americans to kind of suck up as they watch this rocket go up?

Pam Melroy

00:15:06

'Well, based on the Apollo experience, and even my experience on the space shuttle, the answer to that is yes. And I think it's really important to understand that this is a long-term investment in humanity. It's new opportunities, new capabilities, and, as you said, the wonder and awe of discovering our universe. But I think its important to recognize there have been so many scientific achievements that have eventually come back to Earth. All of the money that's spent going to space is spent right here on Earth. And so that benefits our economy. But even more importantly, some of the medical, telemedicine is another great example that was essentially invented by NASA. Food safety was invented by Nasa. All of these capabilities spill over into solving other problems. The one that really excites me is finding life somewhere else. We can't always predict what the benefits are for the future, but the sense of mystery and awe that we feel when you discover something that no one expected or believed to be true, that's an incredible experience.

David Rind

00:16:17

'Another part of the movie and the book is just this idea of governments around the world coming together to solve a huge, massive problem, pooling all the resources, the know-how. And I think if you look at international relations today, you look President Trump's America First agenda, I mean you even talked about like the posturing of the American space program and how that stacks up in the world. Like, is that kind of cooperation? Realistic or is that kind of a science fiction thing too, just the idea that people can come together to solve these problems or unlock new discoveries like you talk about?

Pam Melroy

00:16:54

It's happening today, it's happening every day. The International Space Station is the most remarkable example of nations coming together. There's five space agencies, but the European Space Agency has multiple countries participating, our familiar friends like Germany, France, Italy, and the UK, as well as many others, coming together to help build the space station. And I think there's a real appetite. For this in exploring the solar system together. I'm gonna give you an example. The Artemis Accords is a series of principles on what's responsible behavior as we go out into the solar system to the moon and beyond. And we have 60 signatories from nations around the world, many who NASA haven't had programs with in the past. NASA is really special, I think, in that it is the most successful space program in the world. But it doesn't mean that NASA doesn't want to partner with others. And I think that's been demonstrated. And, in fact, you'll see it on this mission.

Jeremy Hansen

00:18:08

I feel a lot of things. For sure, I feel a great sense of pride for Canada because

Pam Melroy

00:18:15

'The first non-American is going to be leaving Earth orbit on Artemis II, Canadian Jeremy Hansen.

Jeremy Hansen

00:18:22

Americans should rightly be proud that they curate a collaboration that does this together because that is an intentional, not a necessary, but an intentional choice to do that.

Pam Melroy

00:18:33

That's an example of NASA's total commitment to international partners to make this happen and to make it happen in a responsible way.

David Rind

00:18:43

I mean, that's, yeah, I mean that's really interesting if you just look at the backdrop of the relations that the U.S. And Canada have had in the last year plus. I guess it's no small thing that a Canadian would climb aboard and lift off.

Pam Melroy

00:18:56

It's not just Jeremy, it's also the first woman and the first person of color leaving Earth's orbit.

Christina Koch

00:19:01

I recognize that we talk about these superlatives. We talk about the first, and that's a great thing because it brings people in.

Pam Melroy

00:19:08

And that's because the astronauts of the world now represent all of those people, international, people of color, women, men.

David Rind

00:19:20

It's not just a bunch of white guys.

Pam Melroy

00:19:22

Not just a bunch of white guys. And I think when you talk about inspiration, I was very inspired by Apollo, but I think that I know many women who said, well, women can't be astronauts. When I was a teenager, I was like, well, I don't care. I'm gonna figure it out. I'm going to go be an astronaut. But a lot of them were discouraged. They just thought it wasn't possible. I think what we're gonna see is a whole generation that is going to be very different. And you know, NASA actually does bring people together. I have often remarked, if you go back and look at the 60s, war, race riots, the one hopeful thing that happened was Apollo. And in a lot of ways, it feels like a repeat.

David Rind

00:20:13

Well, we'll all be watching to see how it goes, starting on Wednesday. Pam, thanks so much for the perspective. I really appreciate it.

Pam Melroy

00:20:20

My pleasure.

David Rind

00:20:26

All right, that's all for us today. CNN will have tons of coverage of this mission throughout over at CNN.com and CNN All Access, the CNN app, literally anywhere CNN is, you will be able to find out what is going on here. We'll be back with another episode right here on Sunday. I'll talk to you then.

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