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Inside a Rush to Relocate from Trump’s America
CNN One Thing
Jul 6, 2025
More Americans are starting to follow through with threats to leave the country in President Trump’s second term. We hear about what went into one family’s decision and why some are leaning on dual citizenship as a defacto ‘insurance policy.’
Guest: Anna Cooban, CNN Business and Economics Reporter
Have a question about the news? Have a story you think we should cover? Call us at 202-240-2895.
Episode photo: Megan Varner/Reuters
Episode Transcript
David Rind
00:00:00
So much of President Donald Trump's second term has revolved around those fighting to stay in the US, from migrants and deportation proceedings to students who've suddenly had their visas revoked. Meanwhile, Trump's fight to eliminate birthright citizenship continues.
President Donald Trump
00:00:16
This is just another way that they get illegal immigrants into our into our country and in some cases very very bad ones go ahead
David Rind
00:00:24
'These moves have sparked fear and desperation among those who came to America in search of a better life. But the current political climate has some born-and-bred Americans thinking about getting out of Dodge.
TikTok
00:00:38
So I've been really feeling like I want to leave the country. My husband and I have decided that we just can't do it anymore.
David Rind
00:00:43
'In the aftermath of last year's election, we heard from many Americans who said they were seriously considering leaving the country because of Trump's win. And while we heard similar things during Trump 1.0, there does seem to be more follow-through this time. Rosie O'Donnell packed up and moved to Ireland, for example.
Rosie O'Donnell
00:01:00
I'm trying to find a home here in this beautiful country and when it is safe for all citizens to have equal rights there in America, that's when we will consider coming back.
David Rind
00:01:18
So just how widespread is this rush to relocate and is it actually attainable for the average American? From CNN, this is one thing. I'm David Rind. My guest today is CNN business and economics reporter Anna Cooban. She has the story of one family who are dropping everything to move to Morocco and why others are leaning on dual citizenship as a de facto insurance policy. That's after this.
David Rind
00:01:55
So Anna, I have to admit, when I hear about folks saying, oh, I'm going to leave the country because Trump was elected, I mean, we heard this in 2016. We heard it again in 2024. It kind of sounds like a pipe dream, or just kind of something people say to blow off steam because they're upset with the result. But you've been looking into folks who have actually taken the plunge and gone forward with plans to leave America. That people are really doing this.
Anna Cooban
00:02:25
'Yes, they are. I mean, I did speak to tax advisors, immigration advisors, and they said that certainly back in 2016, after Trump was first elected president, that there was a lot of, a lot of hot steam, a lot of people saying, I'm going to leave the country because I completely disagree with this new president, his administration. But very few of those people actually put their money where their mouths were. However, his re-election in November has really sparked many people to actually take the plunge and so the data that we're seeing is interesting too. So if you look at the number of people who've applied for a British passport in recent months that has surged. So more than 1900 people applied for UK passport during the first three months of this year. That's the most since the Home Office began keeping records in 2004. It isn't possible to say why somebody might apply for citizenship out of those 1900 applications, but the fact that this has happened just after the election is at least interesting.
David Rind
00:03:28
Yeah, I wanna get to how much of this actually has to do with Trump directly, but who are these people who are doing this?
Anna Cooban
00:03:33
So the people that I've directly spoken to, there's one couple, Kevin and Jessica Cellura.
Anna Cooban
00:03:39
Where are you gonna move to, do you know?
Jesicca Cellura
00:03:41
We're going to be in Morocco, which is a huge jump for us, because we don't speak French or Arabic. We will be at an international school, so everyone there will speak English.
Anna Cooban
00:03:55
'They are teachers. They live in Asheville, North Carolina. They've lived in the U.S. Their whole lives. They're deciding to basically take a one-way ticket to Morocco in August.
Jesicca Cellura
00:04:05
So I'd say it's been percolating for a little while, but no, I would not have been pursuing this had it not been for the election. Like it was the election that set off this stomach ache that wouldn't go away.
Anna Cooban
00:04:18
To be clear, they've always wanted to move abroad or to at least try living in a different country and culture. But Kevin said to me that the reelection of Trump really provided the spark for them to make this move that they profoundly disagree with this administration and basically want out.
Kevin Cellura
00:04:34
I consider myself a lifelong moderate. President Reagan was the first president I remember as a kid. President H.W. Bush was the president that I voted for in a national election. Since then, I have supported and voted for members of the Democratic Party, members of the Republican Party.
Anna Cooban
00:04:54
'So they're really interesting in the fact that they're not card-carrying Democrats. They're unaffiliated voters in North Carolina. They both voted for Kamala Harris in last year's presidential election. Kevin voted Republican in the 1990s, but they also both voted for Nikki Haley in the Republican presidential primary.
Jesicca Cellura
00:05:12
Hoping that they would at least see someone who had, we didn't agree with, but she would at least operate on facts and not propaganda. I mean, that would have been the lesser is here.
Anna Cooban
00:05:21
And so they're not particularly partisan in terms of Republican versus Democrat, but they are profoundly opposed to Trump and his administration.
Kevin Cellura
00:05:30
I watched on January 6th, clear as day, President Trump lead an insurrection against our government.
Anna Cooban
00:05:38
Kevin, for example, described to me that he feels that the Trump administration is based in propaganda and not reality, saying that the January 2021 insurrection at the Capitol was something that really brought home to him that the current administration is not based in reality.
Kevin Cellura
00:05:55
Since that attack, the PR supporting Trump has whitewashed it to the point that now the people who attacked our government are being rewarded with jobs and thousands if not millions of dollars because of their support for Trump. It does not appear that the reality of the attack matters in any sense.
David Rind
00:06:20
So when did they actually decide, you know, oh, we've been thinking about this, but we're actually going to do it this time.
Anna Cooban
00:06:26
So they told me that they were at a teacher fair, a job fair in December last year, and that the opportunity for them to become teachers in Morocco was something that was presented to them and that they basically had about 48 hours to decide whether they were going to accept it or not.
Jesicca Cellura
00:06:43
We didn't realize that they were going to make you job offers right there. So we kind of were in this spot where we had like 48 hours to make a decision. And so that was when we were like, yeah, let's do it. Like, you know, our oldest kid isn't going to want to leave his friends in a year or two. Like, this is the perfect time. Let's just jump and do it
Anna Cooban
00:07:03
And so the past few months have been a very busy whirlwind of preparing to move their lives thousands of miles from North Carolina to Morocco. And that involves really trying to rent out their house, which they're doing so at the moment. I spoke to them just this week. They've been having virtual meetings with their next employer. They're all very incredibly excited, but of course, there must be some trepidation around such a huge move.
Jesicca Cellura
00:07:27
And that's not to say that things will be perfect in Morocco. They don't have a perfect democracy over there. They're not incredibly inclusive. But we will get away from the chaos here in the United States.
Anna Cooban
00:07:42
'So they're ready to go. They've got a one-way plane ticket on August 10th to Rabat, the capital of Morocco. But of course, it's a huge undertaking moving the life of four different people across the world.
Jesicca Cellura
00:07:53
We still care. We're not leaving and just saying like, see you America, we have family sites here. We would like to help in any way that we can, but we feel kind of helpless, I guess.
Anna Cooban
00:08:06
Do you see yourselves coming back to America?
Jesicca Cellura
00:08:09
I'm gonna be fine either way. It's been kind of in the back of my mind for a while that like maybe America is just not my country. But yeah, I think if America can get a handle I'm a propaganda and we can. Have reasonable conversations with each other again, then sure, I'd be happy to come back.
David Rind
00:08:30
This sounds like an involved process with a lot of different things that you have to take care of. And it doesn't sound cheap, right? Like, I guess I'm wondering if a move like this is really only available to people who have the kind of money and resources to make it happen.
Anna Cooban
00:08:45
So you're right. Moving abroad is a really, anyone who's done it will know that it's an expensive process. There are so many costs involved that you can't even begin to anticipate at the start. And that was brought home for me when I was speaking to international tax advisors, immigration lawyers, who basically told me that the majority of their clients are wealthier than average. They have the means to move and therefore able to put that into practice. But the people that have been turning to these professionals who help people to move abroad. Since the election are now of a different demographic than normal, this is what I've been told. So there are now two distinct groups who are coming to these people for their services, more so than in the past. And so one is our members of the LGBTQ plus community. So to give you one example, David Lesperance, he's the head of a tax and immigration advisory firm. He told me that in January, just days after Trump had signed an executive order that effectively restricted access to transgender medical care for young people.
David Lesperance
00:09:45
I got seven clients in nine days, of families who had a trans child.
Anna Cooban
00:09:51
He saw seven inquiries from parents with a trans child over the next few days, which was not normal for him.
David Rind
00:09:56
And that's like a very practical thing, right? More than just political reasons, don't like the climate. Those families, I imagine, would have worries about where am I actually going to get the care for my kid? Maybe I can't get it here easily in America. I need to go somewhere else.
Anna Cooban
00:10:13
Absolutely. The people that David Lesperance talks to, the parents with trans children, there's a very specific reason why they're moving and that's because they feel like their families are targets. They feel like their child and their child's rights are being deprived if they continue to live in America. And he said to me in his words that the people who come to him are people who tend to feel like they are targets
David Lesperance
00:10:37
they can smell the smoke more than the average, you know, white heterosexual male with a MAGA hat on.
Anna Cooban
00:10:45
They're people who feel like they're living in a, and I quote, political wildfire zone, and they can smell the smoke more than maybe other people can in the US.
David Rind
00:11:00
Well, so Kevin and Jessica, they are making plans to go abroad to Morocco, like you said, and that's going to be coming up. But I'm wondering about folks who actually have done this and have gone abroad, do they feel like it was worth it?
Anna Cooban
00:11:15
So one person I spoke to, his name's Erik Lindsay. He's a screenwriter and novelist. He already made the move back in 2020. Now I think his case is quite interesting because he hasn't moved because of Trump per se, but because of the increasing divisiveness politically and socially in America.
Anna Cooban
00:11:33
It seems like you've had a lot of motivation since you moved to Italy, but what do you think in 2020 was the, if there was?
Erik Lindsay
00:11:44
It was COVID.
Anna Cooban
00:11:46
Lindsay left America in 2020 during the height of the pandemic. He moved from Manhattan Beach, California to Italy. And he said the pandemic was really this catalyst for doing so. He said in his words that America had become an ideological civil war.
Erik Lindsay
00:11:59
And then the election and the stuff leading up to the election, and then like RBG passes, and they do the exact opposite of what they said, the reason that they wouldn't let Merida Garland through. And it's just like, what is going on? To have any nuance in a conversation with anybody regarding politics that's an American is impossible. You can do it here with your European friends.
Anna Cooban
00:12:22
So he wanted to escape those fractures, but he said that the idea to move abroad to Italy had been percolating since 2016. He told me that he remembers a pretty pivotal moment for him where he posted on his Instagram after Trump was elected the first time. He essentially tried to calm many of his friends who were worried about Trump's election, saying essentially that he believed the... American Republic was strong enough to withstand four years of a reality TV star at the helm. This was how he described his post and that he was urging his friends to take the long view of American history.
Erik Lindsay
00:12:58
I'm like, look, the American president survived like 240 years, like, you know, 72 assassination times like three.
Anna Cooban
00:13:05
That he said really the post devolved into a lot of venom and vitriol and people were in the comments.
Erik Lindsay
00:13:11
I just put one post, and it just spins off with a ta, and they're screaming at each other, and I'm just like, what is going on here?
Anna Cooban
00:13:18
They were fighting with each other. They were criticizing him. And he said that it was a really pivotal moment where he thought, I just don't want to be here anymore. I want to move to a different part of the world where these social divisions aren't quite as deep.
David Rind
00:13:29
And that's interesting. It's like he was urging people to take the long view and his post kind of proved his point and he ended up, you know, going against his own advice in the end.
Anna Cooban
00:13:39
In a way, yes, although he does have ancestry in Italy. And so the reason he moved to Italy was because of this. His great grandparents were born in the country. And so because of that, he was able to apply and to eventually become an Italian citizen, but he did only sneak in with that citizenship. So he got his citizenship earlier this year and in May, Italy actually enacted a law that removed the route to citizenship through great grandparents. So he was very lucky with his timing there.
David Rind
00:14:08
It just kind of goes to show that everybody's looking for that thing that will like get them to go or make it easier to go, right? And having that ancestry, that citizenship is like one more thing on top that would, you know, get somebody over the line.
Anna Cooban
00:14:22
Yes, exactly. And the data we've seen recently in Ireland. So during the first quarter this year, we saw about 4,700 people living in the US apply for Irish citizenship, but specifically Irish citizenship based on their ancestry. So whether they have a parent or a grandparent that may have been born in the country. And so that's really crucial because it means that they don't already have to have been living in Ireland in order to apply for that.
David Rind
00:14:45
Oh, wow. So they don't even have to leave the U.S. To get this Irish citizenship. And then they have this backup plan, in theory, if they want to leave.
Anna Cooban
00:14:55
Exactly. And so what I find particularly interesting is this concept of an insurance policy. So when I've been speaking to these tax and immigration advisers, they've said to me that many of the people that they're dealing with don't want to move out of the US or actually have no plans to move our the US, but they're just trying to get citizenship rights, dual citizenship, so that they have this insurance so that if they need to leave the US if they feel like they really have to, they can do so very, very quickly.
David Rind
00:15:23
And again, it's folks that have the money or the ability to get this citizenship that may have a leg up in getting such an insurance policy. Well, Anna, thanks so much. I appreciate it.
Anna Cooban
00:15:44
Thank you.
David Rind
00:15:44
One Thing is a CNN Podcasts production. This episode was hosted and produced by me, David Rind. Our show runner is Felicia Patinkin. Matt Dempsey is our production manager. Dan Dzula is our technical director and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Podcasts. We get support from Alex Manasseri, Mark Duffy, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nicole Pesaru and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Wendy Brundidge. Just a reminder, please leave us a rating and a review wherever you might be listening. It helps other people discover the show. We'll be back on Wednesday. I'll talk to you then.
