Scribble

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:00:02

'Welcome to Chasing Life. If you know anything about me, you probably know that I am the very proud father of three wonderful daughters. It really is the best part of my life. I think I was designed to be a dad. Two of my daughters are in college now. It's hard to even say that out loud. One of my daughter is a junior in high school. We're trying to hold her tight as long as we can. And luckily, they're all happy and healthy. I remember when the kids were young, my wife and I on certain days would take a look at them and just start to wonder aloud, who was this little child likely to grow up to be? What was her personality going to be like? The possibilities always seem endless. At the same time, we were cognizant for some parents, especially those parents who had children with a life-altering diagnosis, the story, the imagination was always going be a lot different. There was going to be a lot more uncertainty.

Leland Vittert

00:01:01

You know, my dad from the very beginning, he's realizing that I have absolutely no understanding of social interaction or of someone else's emotion.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:01:11

That's News Nation anchor, former Fox News reporter and author Leland Vittert. He was diagnosed with autism at a young age. It was a time when the idea of autism existing on a spectrum didn't even exist. He decided to write about it. It's a new memoir. It's called Born Lucky, A Dedicated Father, A Grateful Son, and My Journey With Autism. In this book, Leland recounts his life. He talks about his early years of intense isolation and being bullied mercilessly, but he mostly talks about his father's efforts to adapt Leland to a world that would not adapt to him.

Leland Vittert

00:01:52

He taught me, you know, minute by minute, the social and emotional fabric that comes so naturally to other people.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:02:01

It's a fascinating read, as Leland shares his experience of learning to make his way in an unyielding world with the help of unwavering family support. His hope, then, is that his story might help empower parents with a kid who is having a hard time for any reason. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and this is Chasing Life.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:02:32

Hello.

Leland Vittert

00:02:33

Hey, Sanjay, how are you?

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:02:34

I'm doing well. Thank you so much for joining us on Chasing Life. How are you feeling this morning?

Leland Vittert

00:02:39

Never better.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:02:40

Well, congratulations on writing the book. I'm curious, just as a fellow author, at the very beginning stages when you decided to write this, what was going through your mind? I mean, what were you hoping to get out of it?

Leland Vittert

00:02:56

There were two main ideas of writing Born Lucky. One is to give hope to every parent of a kid who is struggling the way I did. Number two, on just a deeply personal point, is I wanted my dad to understand the incredible gratitude that I have and understanding I have for all of the sacrifices he made. Um, he didn't tell me about my diagnosis till I was in my 20s, didn't tell therapists, didn't tell teachers, anything like that. We never talked about it.

00:03:29

But just one example, you know, interviewing him for the book that he didn't actually tell me the story, My mom did, is that every night from fourth to about ninth, tenth, 11th grade, he would spend a couple of hours in my room, just sort of putting me back together and I was sort of take out whatever the emotional toll of the day, of the isolation and the bullying and the sort of crushing torture, I think would be probably a pretty good word, the emotional torture I was going through on him. And I didn't know until we wrote the book that oftentimes he would leave my room, it was 10 o'clock at night, I'd probably be doing homework, or I'd go to sleep, he would walk downstairs in our house, and he would sit in the living room by himself and start crying.

Leland Vittert

00:04:15

And my mom would then come out and find him in the in room one, two o'clock in the morning. So. I think one of the stories of Born Lucky is exactly how dealing with a kid who's having a hard time is a whole of family experience. And I wanted my dad to understand while he was still with us, that I understood the sacrifices and was so grateful for him that he had made.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:04:35

Incredibly touching. I have kids around the age you were at the time you're describing the story, but I think for every parent listening, there is a resonance there. Maybe not for the exact same thing, but the things that we hold deeply, we may even insulate our kids from at the time. You know, in some ways, this is an incredible book about you and your father and your relationship, and he writes the afterword and I have a lot of questions about that. Did you ask him, I mean, I'm sure he read it ahead of time before it was published and maybe gave you feedback. How did that process go?

Leland Vittert

00:05:11

'You're nice to ask. I think the afterwards is the best part, right? The forward is written by George Will, who says, this is proof of the mountain-moving power of parental love.

00:05:21

Born Lucky was never going to be written, because this was a private story about me and we never told anybody about this. Born Lucky is the darkest, most awful times of my life. And I never went to therapy as a kid. And now at 43, I'm going to therapy on national television, which is not exactly a bucket of fun. But if it if it can help other people let's do it.

00:05:43

So the way the afterword came about, every time I would get to a story with my dad, whether it was him crying after he put me to bed or if it was the time the art teacher who didn't like my paintings in eighth grade said in front of the entire class, you know what, Vittert, if my dog was as ugly as you, I would shave its ass and make it walk backwards, whatever the story was.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:06:05

Wow. Geez.

Leland Vittert

00:06:06

Yeah. There's a few of those in Born Lucky. So it wasn't just the kids doing the bullying, it was teachers too. But whatever it was, my dad be like, Oh, wait a second here. Do we really want to tell that story? Like, you know, this is, this was really private. What do we think? And I said, look, dad, I said let me take you back to that time I was diagnosed, and the woman said, there's not much you can do and there's no hope.

00:06:27

If rather than saying there was no hope, she had given you Born Lucky, how would you have felt? And he said, I would have read it every week. So. I said, okay. And he said, but I still don't know what makes me too much of a hero. I'm not a hero, I'm just a dad. I said well, you're my hero. And I think a lot of people are gonna read this and feel like the effort and the love you put forward was incredible. I said why don't you write an afterword of your thoughts, because I don't wanna give advice to people, you write what you want parents in the same position you were in. Doesn't matter if it's autism or ADHD or anxiety or bullying, whatever it is, just parents or if a kid who's having a hard time. What would you have wanted a parent to say to you?

00:07:09

And he said, okay. And we had to turn, I think it was like we had turned the manuscript in on a Friday. And on Wednesday night, I called him and I said, you have got to do this. And he goes, I'm doing it, I've doing it. I said no, NOW: sit down and do it. And an hour later, he called me with I think, like 500 of the most beautiful words I've ever read.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:07:32

What different would you say the landscape is for a child who receives a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, today's diagnosis, versus in the 80s when you had your diagnosis?

Leland Vittert

00:07:44

Look, I don't know because I'm not a parent, right? So I think it's obviously very, very different. The part I think that is also different is that there's so much of an effort now, whether it's autism or ADHD or anxiety or whatever the diagnosis is, to tell parents just to sort of meet kids where they're at, right, and just be like, well, you know, everybody's special and we have to celebrate everybody's differences.

Leland Vittert

00:08:09

And that may work for some people, it may not. This isn't a cure, this isn't advice. I'm not a doctor, I'm a psychologist, I'm even a parent. But it's very clear that the way my dad approached me in the born lucky story of how he adapted me to the world and taught me minute by minute the social and emotional fabric that comes so naturally to other people is a very different way of dealing with things than maybe in vogue today.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:08:37

Could it work today, though? I mean, one of the things reading the book is your dad really resisted the idea of a label, as you've mentioned. He didn't want to label you anything. And again, I fully realize, you're not a doctor, you're the one actually taking care of these families, but would you recommend the same thing today?

Leland Vittert

00:08:59

You know, autism is not anything you're ever cured of. I've had people say, well, how'd your dad cure you from autism? No. And in the book, I kind of sort of compared it to alcoholism. It's something you have to work at every day. It will always be with you. It's always with me. And you know, I still today say, you know what my dad said, the standard is the standard, and that's what you're gonna be judged on. So to me, I think not ever having that label, either for other people to define me, but also for me to define myself and give myself an excuse has been really a really important thing.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:09:30

When you started getting into the television business... Like this was the thing, I remember we were talking about you in one of the editorial meetings and I thought to myself, you know, I'm a neuroscientist, so I think a lot about the brain and I think the TV business in some way seems like it would be a challenging sort of career to pursue. How did that come about? And was it as challenging as you expected it to be? I mean, you're very good at it. I mean you're, you are very delightful to watch. And I think you give off a, a sense of empathy and I, you're very knowledgeable. So all those things work, but like, take me behind the scenes, if you will, into your brain, like, how's that working for you?

Leland Vittert

00:10:12

'It's a great question and I think sort of only somebody like you could pick up on it. it's interesting. I got a response from... An email from somebody who worked with me at a station at the very beginning of my career when I was coming up through local news and said-- he'd been a gentleman who who clearly had tried to be nice to me. but in newsrooms when I was young, I was having a really hard time: people put up signs around about me saying, you know, interns should be seen, not heard and... But this guy he was there my first real station and he emailed me he said, you know, he said I always liked you, he said and I have to apologize to you because I just didn't understand you you know what I thought was rude was just sort of you becoming who you were.

00:10:52

So there was the newsroom internal dynamics that were quite hard. The way this book came about was actually because of a talent coach. I was with News Nation for a couple of months, I was starting to become a prime time anchor when News Nation was starting out. And it was a big transition right from being a field reporter to being a anchor, especially a nightly anchor rather than just daytime news that I did at Fox.

00:11:16

And she was, she and I were talking and she said, the real challenge for you that I see is matching the emotional tenor of your guest. Thought to myself, well, that's interesting. I mean, something my dad always talked about about how to match someone's emotions and understand them and meet their emotions and think about that. And I was thinking about it. And I said to her, I said, well, I've never told anybody this because I didn't think it really mattered, but you know, work for the company that is hiring me and trying to help me, you should know that that's about the hardest thing in the world for me to do, match someone emotions, because I'm autistic.

00:11:53

'And she kind of... Didn't talk for 30 seconds. And I'm on the phone and I go, are you there? And she goes, uh-huh. She goes, did you say you were autistic? I said, uh huh. She said, you ever told anybody that? I said no, I didn't think it was ever relevant, but you know, you are talking about this thing that I've worked on my whole life to do. It's really hard for me.

00:12:13

So that actually became the genesis of the book. She was the one who really encouraged me to write the book and said, you know you're gonna help so many people by writing it. But. Yeah, it's still a challenge. It's a learned skill. It's discipline and a skill, and it's gotten obviously a lot easier over time, but it's very much there.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:12:32

How do you work at it?

Leland Vittert

00:12:35

You know, my dad from the very beginning, he's realizing that I have absolutely no understanding of social interaction or of someone else's emotion, right? So he would take me to a lunch, say with you, right? Because I would have loved to go to lunch with you. And I was sort of interested in all these different things and because I didn't have any friends my own age, he was my only friend. I was sort of a mini me, right. And I love talking about news and events and politics and sort of anything that was interesting.

00:13:04

And so we would go to lunch, right, and we would be sitting there and you and he would be talking about your kids or your wives or weekend plans or whatever. And I would interrupt and I would say, okay, well, so how do you, what do you do when you're in the OR and there's breaking news? Or how do deal with when you are on TV and a patient calls? And then I'd say, but how do figure out whether somebody has cancer and you do surgery or not? And I will just start blasting you with questions.

00:13:33

And my dad would tap his watch, right? And that was my cue to stop talking without embarrassing me. And also to bookmark it. So on the way home, he would say, okay, so when Dr. Gupta was talking about his wife's art project, I'm making this up, and you interrupted and asked about, you know, his time in the operating room, why did you think he wanted to talk about that right then? I don't know, dad, that, that was sort of what was interesting to me. Well, what could you have asked Dr. Gupta about what he was interested in? And then we would role play that. So I mean, that was the very basic of it, I mean ,where I'm sort of talking about the foundational building blocks of it, but that was sort of teaching me the social and emotional interaction that comes so naturally to other people.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:14:20

Did you get treated differently when the book came out and in your workplace or among friends?

Leland Vittert

00:14:26

No, I mean, I think people sort of know who I am now in my workplace, you know, my friends know who I am. You know, I struggled with this idea that people would treat me differently, right? I'm the same person. I've just sort of now said, Oh, by the way, this is part of my life. And I think, if I weigh it, I feel like the amount of people I've helped, and the amount of people who've emailed me and said, you really helped me and we've done a few book events around the country, and there've been 10, 11, 12, 13 year old kids come up to me and said, you know, I know now I can get through school and seeing you tells me that it's gonna be okay and they're like, if people want to treat me differently, no problem. That's on them.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:15:09

We're going to hear much more about Leland Vittert's experience of growing up with autism after a short break.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:15:21

Welcome back to Chasing Life. I'm talking to News Nation anchor Leland Vittert. He has a new book called Born Lucky. He wanted to talk about what it was like to grow up with autism and how his family helped him survive childhood.

00:15:36

Let's talk about the rest of your family, your mom. So you were, you were a breach. Your mom made a pivotal decision at the time of your birth. Can you just talk about that?

Leland Vittert

00:15:48

Sure. And that's where the title of the book comes from is born lucky. My nickname is lucky. And up until I was 18 years old, I would have introduced myself as lucky and people would say, why?

00:15:57

'I never really told the story, but until the book, but my mother's 35, this is 1982, high risk pregnancy. And the doctor says to my mother, I've got a bad feeling about this. They could see on the ultrasounds even back then that I was upside down. I was breech. The Doctor says to my mom, I think you should have a C-section. And at the time, there was all this literature, C-sections are, you know, sort of not really needed and it was in vogue to have a natural birth and doctors were scheduling C-sections because they didn't want to be called in at three o'clock on a Saturday morning, all the usual stuff.

00:16:29

My mom made a very fateful decision: If I'm not going to trust my doctor, I should get a new doctor, not not take his advice. And you know she's in the operating room, they're delivering me. This is the part of the book I don't remember. There's a blue sheet separating my mom and dad from where they're delivering me and the doctor who's delivering me goes, oh my god oh my God! And the nurse goes oh, my God this is a lucky baby!

00:16:54

And of course my mom's hand just like clenches down on my dad and 'everything okay?' And the doctor says give us a minute and then they go, oh my, God what a lucky baby! And my dad now goes, Is everything okay? And the doctor goes, Yeah, it's fine. Give us a minute.

00:17:10

What it turned out was the umbilical cord was tied around my neck and in two knots. So I would have either been dead or had severe cerebral palsy. Fast forward to the next day, I'm now up in the little maternity ward or whatever it is with my mom in the room. And there was this white board outside that said like Carol Vittert, Leland Vittert outside the room, like the last time I pooped, what I ate, what I weighed, whatever it is. And the doctor came by with a sharpie and crossed out Leland Vittert and wrote, call him lucky. So the doctor really, who delivered me, named me.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:17:46

That's an incredible...

Leland Vittert

00:17:47

Yeah, it's a fun story.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:17:49

And your mom had to make this decision, this pivotal decision in her life. Again, I think there's so many lessons in this book, I hope everyone gets a chance to read it. Your grandfather wrote a letter to your father.

Leland Vittert

00:18:02

One of the two things dad taught me early on that I could control in born lucky, right? I wasn't going to be good at school. I wasn't going to good at having friends. I wasn't going to go to athletics. He said, you can control two things, your work ethic and your character.

00:18:14

And to him, character is destiny. And the reason was that when he was 16 years old, his dad died. He was shaving, getting ready for a date upstairs in his bathroom. And his brother, who was much older, my uncle, 10 years older, showed up. My dad said, Bruce, why are you here? And Bruce said, our dad died, about an hour ago.

00:18:36

And with that, Bruce took my dad down to the family construction company, there was a little office building down in St. Louis, and they opened up the safe in the office, and in the safe was a letter from my grandfather to his two boys, my dad and his brother. And we have the letter in the book, as you saw, and the letter talks about how character is destiny and how you as a man are not defined by your success or your accolades or your monetary worth.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:19:06

A shelf full of awards.

Leland Vittert

00:19:07

Anything. it is who you are as a man, your character. So that is the lesson that I think really sort of permeates through the book and obviously then sort of culminates at the end with my time at Fox News ending because I did what I thought was right and said what I knew to be true about the 2020 election: that Biden won and Trump did not, and there was no fraud and all that kind of stuff. So I think that through line of do the right thing no matter what, was a lesson that I wanted to really highlight that came down from my grandfather to my dad to me.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:19:43

He wrote, it didn't just tell you how to live, it gave you something to measure yourself against, setting goals, achievable, articulate goals, as he called them, and then once you set those, work like hell to achieve those. And it became more than just words on a piece of paper. Your dad carried it in his wallet ever since then, and it seems like in many ways it was the map that he used to help you as well.

Leland Vittert

00:20:08

And look, you know, I mean, in terms of hard work, you know my dad, when I was diagnosed, effectively quit his job. As he said to me later, he said, I didn't know how it was gonna turn out, but I knew I was your only chance.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:20:29

It sounds like an incredible guy. The book's fantastic. And I think, as you point out, a lot of people are going to get a lot out of it. I, as a dad, that's the part that really, really resonated with me. And again, having kids that were your age, Leland, around the time that many of these stories took place, I really reflected on that a lot as I was reading this. So thank you for that part of it. What about your siblings? How were they during all this?

Leland Vittert

00:20:59

I only have one, I have a little sister. She's the smart one, she went to MIT has a PhD in math and all that kind of stuff. I always like to say that the apples fell from the tree and her apple stayed up on the top of the orchard and my ran down to like the drainage ditch.

00:21:14

I didn't really realize how difficult what I was going through was on her. So I'll give you a couple of examples from Born Lucky and I think there's a lot of families that'll realize how it's a whole of family effort and also, the effect on siblings, right?

00:21:28

So I asked my sister in interviewing her for the book, what's your earliest memory of me? Pretty simple question, right. She says, oh, that's easy. She said, when you were in fifth grade and I was in kindergarten, every day you would walk from fifth grade down to the kindergarten classroom to pick me up, to take me home. We would walk home together. So three o'clock you'd show up and we would walk out of the school, around the back of the school to where the PE fields were, through the PE field and out to the woods, which led to our house. There's a path back there.

00:21:59

And she said, every time we got to the words, you would start crying. And I would hold your hand as you walked, as we walked home every day. So she said I didn't know why you were crying, but you were crying. Eventually I ended up in seventh grade at this private high school in St. Louis, got through to 12th grade. And in 12th, Liberty showed up in 7th grade. And there were a number of teachers who said to her, I really hope you don't end up like your brother. And she was known in her class as the retarded kid's brother. That's what they call her. Or the retard kid's sister.

00:22:38

And the school had this program where kids in 12th grade had little brothers and little sisters in 7th grade, some older classmen to look out for you. And none of the girls in my class would have her as their little sister, because sort of the scarlet letter that she had because of me. So I thought it was really important in Born Lucky to highlight for people, yes, how hard it was on me, but how hard was on Liberty.

00:23:06

And you brought up my mom in this, who as my dad said in the afterword was the silent hero, the sort of unsung angel, I think was his words. The book is about my dad's and my relationship, but it is also, I think, about how she kept us all together and then how she also spent a lot of time focused on Liberty to try and help make sure she didn't feel sort of neglected as a lot of kids, siblings with kids who are having a hard time or have a disability do. The one thing is, you know, they never told my sister about me either. They never said, oh, Lucky's got this or he's struggling with that. It was always, my mom's line to my sister was, Lucky kind of gets broken every day at school and we as a family have to put him back together.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:23:49

That's incredible. Did she read the book ahead of time as well?

Leland Vittert

00:23:53

Yeah, she complained that she wasn't in it enough.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:23:58

Well, I feel like you did terrific tributes to many of your family members in it. Go back to this Fox News era, and you use that as an example of the character. This letter was sent from your grandfather to your father. He carried it around in his wallet. One of the main through lines was, ultimately, you're measured by your character. And you use that is an example of what happened at the end of your time at Fox News.

Leland Vittert

00:24:25

Yeah, do the right thing, the consequences be damned. I was always taught by my dad, you tell the truth, you do what's right no matter what. And this is after the 2020 election, it was a weekend, two or three weeks after the election that had been called for Joe Biden. And there was one of the Stop the Steal rallies in DC, which thousands of Trump supporters came and they were all chanting. So we had on during the weekend show at Fox, one of Trump's spokespeople. And she was adamant that the election was stolen and every vote needed to be counted and on and on. And I kept pushing back on her and it got combative. And she started screaming at me and it went back and forth.

00:25:06

I kind of, I think it's probably just sort of my sense of fairness and fair play that I learned from my dad, like, when people say things that aren't true, it just sort grates on me. And I made it clear that I thought what she was saying was untrue, so... After that, I was told I was never gonna anchor again at Fox.

00:25:27

'Now in January, late January, early February of 2021, I'm gone from Fox News, invited not to return. I almost died of COVID that month. I was in a hospital for about a week with COVID. My pulse ox, this will mean something to you and your listeners, was 78. And then I ended a long-term relationship, so I didn't have a girlfriend or a place to live or anything.

00:25:52

So I'm in my parents' guest bedroom in Florida feeling sorry for myself. And my dad comes in and he says, you know, he says I understand you're feeling sorry for yourself, you're 38 years old, you have no job, no girlfriend, no place to live and you almost died. I said, yeah, I feel pretty sorry for my self. He says, well, he said, guess what? He said, you went back to school every day in eighth grade, you can do this too. And I think that that was that great lesson from born lucky which is embrace adversity. It's your friend.

00:26:24

And so often now, again, no advice, but parents want to remove all the adversity their kids go through, right? Where you know, oh, it's hard for you to take a test, more time on the test. Oh, it is difficult for you to learn a language. Okay, never mind, because you're learning disability, there's no language requirement, whatever it is. And my dad's philosophy was, life's hard but I'm gonna hold your hand through the adversity. We're gonna walk through this together and I'm going to help you get through. But I'm also gonna teach you that you can do it. You can overcome it. You can fight. And I always say that what I didn't realize in eighth grade when I kept going back to school is how middle school is great training for a Washington newsroom.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:27:10

I am curious, you obviously write the book and that causes this period of intense reflection I imagine for you. At the time though, going back to eighth grade or even high school, did you recognize the value of what your dad was telling you at that time?

Leland Vittert

00:27:28

Hell no. Hell no. I mean, I hated it. I hated every second. Why are you doing this to me? Why are you making me go back? Why can't I just quit? You know, this is awful. I, you know, just get me out of here.

Leland Vittert

00:27:38

And I was angry, really angry, a lot and angry at him a lot. And, you know, I think in that afterward, he talks about that, about how you're, meaning parents, are the repository of their children's hurt and anger. He kept telling me it's going to get better, right? And I kind of didn't have a choice, but to believe him because otherwise what's the point of this? But no, I did not, you know, there's not a lot of people who are in SEAL training and you go, oh my God, this is great. Like, I love this. But I'm obviously happy now that I went through it.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:28:15

That was a tough time. I mean, living in your parents' guest house, you know, almost died of COVID, trying to find a job, all of that. And now I ask you the first question during this podcast and you say, never better, which makes me super happy because you're employed, you look fantastic, you're healthy and you're married.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:28:33

Yeah, married, got a great wife.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:28:35

Last year you got married?

Leland Vittert

00:28:36

This year. This year. Rachel, I met her shortly after that moment that I told you about when I was so low on a blind date. And I have an emotional intelligence, probably something around the freezing level. Her emotional intelligence is about the temperature of the sun. So that helps. Yeah, it's wonderful.

00:28:59

And I think also, you know, so much of... So much of life is attitude. So much life is not being a victim. I've said this and I got some flack for it, but fine, I'll say it again. Victimhood is like fentanyl. It is both addictive and destructive. That was the one thing my dad never let me be. You are not a victim. And I think that was a really total through line of my upbringing and probably of his too, but that victim does not enter into the equation. And that that's something that's always been really important.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:29:36

'Recently, autism has been in the news a fair amount. And I want to read you some ---.

Leland Vittert

00:29:39

You don't say.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:29:41

I mean, it's kind of crazy. Just as a medical reporter for 25 years, certainly I've been reporting on some of these topics and even the speculation about vaccines, all this. But RFK's comments really sort of were jarring for me, even as someone who for a quarter century has been reporting this.

00:30:00

This is what he said about children with autism. They will never pay taxes, they will never hold a job, they'll never play baseball, they'll never write a poem, they're never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted. You heard these comments.

Leland Vittert

00:30:12

I did.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:30:13

What did you think?

Leland Vittert

00:30:14

I think for a lot of children, that's true. I mean, there's a lot families who have children with profound autism for whom that is life. And their children are living in group homes and they're hoping their kids can be more and they are living, hoping that their child is able to smile and recognize their parents and able to communicate just a little bit.

00:30:35

'So I think we have to be honest that, as you pointed out, autism is a spectrum. I'm not an expert on it, but... You know, I've spoken now to a lot of families for whom that description is 100% true. There's also people like me. So all that said, you know, I'm not a doctor, I'm a scientist, the basis for me is someone who grew up with autism, for whom growing up was hell because of it, who's seen the explosion in the cases of autism -- one in 1,500 when I was a kid, now one in 31, three times higher for boys, on and on and one -- put all that together, for someone who is recently married and now might have a child or would like to have children with my wife, if we're blessed with them, great, but, you know, science can't tell me if my child's gonna be autistic.

00:31:32

Science can't me what, if anything, I and my wife can do to prevent my child from being autistic. You know, if you gave me a piece of paper and said, okay, Rachel's pregnant right now, check autistic or not autistic. Not autistic, thank you. A thousand out of a thousand times. So to me, the fact that this is now being talked about, it's now being considered the scientific question of our time, I think is really important. You know, I saw Chris Hayes on a podcast sort of mocking RFK and going, oh, he's obsessed with finding the cause of autism. Oh, obsessed, obsessed. Well, why wouldn't we be, doc? Why wouldn't you be obsessed with finding the causes of this?

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:32:11

Yeah, look, I mean, I'm asking, I know it's not your area of expertise, I'm just you've lived it, you know, and and so I think, you know, the people that you come in contact with, these kids who come up to you at your book events, I fully realize that there are children who have profound autism. I don't think that's in dispute.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:32:29

I think the idea that the characterization sometimes is this is what all kids with autism are like, to to sort of catastrophize it in that way, I think... You can't disentangle anything from politics nowadays, right? I fully realize that. But I have to say again, it was jarring.

Leland Vittert

00:32:48

I think it was jarring to a lot of people. I think the flip side is why Born Lucky has gotten the reception that it has from Steve Bannon to Joe Scarborough and really everywhere in between. And I think you reading it as a father of kids who are doing great, it had an effect on you, is because it's a story of parental love and the power of parental and the hope parents should have that their kids can be more. It's not a book about autism, right? It's a book about a father and a son. And that to me is what I really wanted it to be. I really want it to to be a tribute, a love letter to my dad.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:33:26

'Well, you nailed that part. I got to say, again, it really, from page one all the way through, I think everyone should read this. I think it's about father-son relationship. It's about relationships, and it's about reflection that you've had over, I guess, 43 years now, but certainly at that time period in your 20s and all that was happening in your life.

00:33:47

'I love it. Look, I was really looking forward to talking to you. It did not disappoint. I feel like I've been watching you for a long time, and I always enjoy it. I feel like I learned something from you, and it's nice to give ---.

Leland Vittert

00:33:58

And I from you as well, I always appreciate turning the volume up. As you know, we all watch the TV with the volume off and whenever you come on, I sit there and turn it up. So thank you.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:34:09

Well, I'm going to do an extra good job now, knowing that you're turning the volume up. Appreciate your time. Good luck on the show tonight. A lot going on in the world, but I really appreciate your time

Leland Vittert

00:34:17

And I, yours. Thank you.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:34:20

That was my conversation with news anchor and reporter Leland Vittert. He has a new book called Born Lucky, it's all about growing up with autism. Please join us next Tuesday for a new episode of Paging Dr. Gupta. Thanks for listening.