Scribble

David Rind

00:00:00

This is One Thing, I'm David Rind and is this one broken promise or a breaking point?

Kelly Ryerson

00:00:06

There are many people that will not be coming back. This lost a lot of people.

David Rind

00:00:10

Why Maha is fuming mad about an herbicide, and more. Stick around.

David Rind

00:00:16

If you were to put a grade on what this administration has accomplished versus what you would hope for going in, what would you give it?

Kelly Ryerson

00:00:25

I give the EPA a D and I give HHS an A and I gave the USDA probably a B minus.

David Rind

00:00:35

That's a very mixed bag. Kelly Ryerson has been part of the Maha movement since day one, in fact, way before Make America Healthy Again was even a thing. After giving birth to her second child, Kelly started experiencing a range of debilitating symptoms stemming from what she later discovered was an autoimmune condition. She said she started feeling better after she gave up gluten and started eating organically. And it was during this journey where she met a scientist who told her about a chemical called glyphosate.

Kelly Ryerson

00:01:05

Roundup, as it's better known, is sprayed on our grains right before harvest. And I said, well, that isn't good. We all know what Roundup is. So you've seen it at Home Depot. This is not a good situation. Dad, it's sprayed right on our food.

David Rind

00:01:20

Roundup is the nation's most widely used weed killer. Glyphosate is one of the herbicides in it. It does help kill unwanted plants, but industry groups say it's only used on crops before harvest under specific circumstances. In 2018, the company that makes it, Monsanto, was being taken to court in San Francisco over claims that glyphosates causes cancer, something Monsando strongly denies. It ended up losing the case. And it was in that courtroom that Kelly met a certain environmental lawyer.

Kelly Ryerson

00:01:47

I walked right into the courtroom, sat right next to R. F. K. Jr., who was the attorney who was litigating, so it was in 2018, and made myself light the sake girl as a blogger to blog that blows during the courtroom to really tell what was happening there.

David Rind

00:02:02

'From that moment on, Kelly decided to devote her life to fighting against pesticides like glyphosate. On social media, she's still known as The Glyphosite Girl. Before we go any further, I just wanna talk about what the science says about the impacts of glyphosate because it's not totally settled. In 2015, the World Health Organization classified glyphocytes as quote, probably carcinogenic to humans. Two large meta-analyzes have found that people exposed to glyphocyte have a higher risk of non-Hodgkin lymphoma. But the EPA says it looked at a more comprehensive data set than the WHO and concluded that glyphosphate is quote, not likely to be carcinogenic. Also, a review by the European Union did not find enough evidence to say that glyphosate causes cancer. And Monsanto and its parent company, Bayer, insist it does not cause cancer. Bayer's website says, quote, "'Experts and regulators worldwide "'have concluded that glyphasate-based products "'can be used safely as directed.'" In fact, on February 17th, Bayer proposed a $7.25 billion settlement to resolve current and future claims alleging that Roundup causes cancer, The settlement, which will be up for final approval later this summer, would not include in the mission or liability of wrongdoing. Just one day later.

Kelly Ryerson

00:03:20

It was like a gut punch, like a huge gut punch.

David Rind

00:03:23

President Donald Trump signed an executive order declaring that glyphosate is quote, central to American economic and national security. He called for an adequate domestic supply. In short, Trump wants more glyphocate, not less, which is the exact opposite of what Maha moms like Kelly have been calling for.

Kelly Ryerson

00:03:40

Of all things. I mean, I have dedicated my life to it now for over a decade. So that really, I'm

David Rind

00:03:47

Did you feel betrayed?

Kelly Ryerson

00:03:49

I feel totally betrayed.

David Rind

00:03:53

What's really interesting here is that HHS secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Says he's also on board with this executive order. This is the same person who took Monsanto to court over cancer claims in one and was reiterating those beliefs as recently as January.

Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

00:04:07

Well, I believe that glyphosate causes cancer.

David Rind

00:04:13

A few weeks later, though, he was on Theo Von's podcast and sounded a little less adversarial.

Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

00:04:18

Right now, if you banned glyphosate outright, it would put out a business, 80% of our farmers.

Theo Von

00:04:24

Got it. Wow, so we're kind of dependent upon something that we know makes us sick.

Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

00:04:28

Yeah.

David Rind

00:04:29

And after the executive order, Secretary Kennedy wrote a long post on social media, which started off by saying pesticides and herbicides are toxic by design and put Americans at risk when introduced into the food system. But he ultimately said the EO was necessary to protect against adversarial nations like China and to make sure farmers don't lose their livelihoods. Does none of that resonate with you at all?

Kelly Ryerson

00:04:53

It actually, that part does resonate with me because I work with many farmers who are dependent on it currently. They are currently dependent on glyphosate and it isn't a good idea to have China manufacturing such an important chemical when we have the ability to do it ourselves. So it's not even so much that, it's that it was paraded in the form of an executive order with no other explanation or no parallel comment that now we're gonna get off of this chemical treadmill. And it goes even beyond that because this is also in the context of several attempts that the White House has supported to give full immunity to pesticide manufacturers when we get sick from exposure. We have the White House that came in in support of Bayer for the Supreme Court to take up a case that will strip us of our rights to see pesticide manufacturer. And I'm just like looking all over and then and then just to in case we didn't notice to bring in a cherry on with an executive order, just to say. How important glytosate is, is just too much. It's so, it's so overstepping.

David Rind

00:05:58

You can hear the frustration and exasperation in Kelly's voice, and she's not alone. So many in the Maha movement who voted for Trump solely so they could see action on healthier food and less pesticides are feeling kind of duped. And with the midterm primaries well underway, a key voting block that helped boost Republicans in 2024 might not be there this time around.

Kelly Ryerson

00:06:19

I really need to see, and I know many people do, we need to see some proactive action to signal to us that he has not forgotten what his mandate was, his own mandate that he gave to make America healthy again, which included these exposures. I can tell you that judging from all the emails that I didn't ask for, and all of the DMs that I've now received since this EO, and there are many people that will not be coming back. This lost a lot of people. And, you know, that sucks, and I'm mad that the president has put me personally and all the people that have gone to bat for him in this position. It looks really bad. It's embarrassing.

David Rind

00:07:01

Herbicides aren't the only pain point Maha is feeling right now. There are multiple key health positions in the Trump administration that are still vacant. And that might say a lot about how Congress feels about this movement and RFK Jr. Himself. Let's turn to Sarah Overmahl. She covers health policy and politics for CNN. So Sarah, how would you describe the state of the Maha movement right now?

Sarah Owermohle

00:07:23

It's a little bit stagnant. There have been some definite maha wins. I would say that they are very proud of sort of reintroducing the food pyramid, the reverse food pyramid. Putting new dietary guidelines out, putting in place a plan of action to remove artificial food dyes. On Thursday, they announced that they are, along with the Environmental Protection Agency, going to be labeling microplastics. Forever chemicals and pharmaceuticals as contaminants in drinking water, that's a big win for them. But there's been several setbacks for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He kind of came in on these promises to do several big things. One of them was, you know, rollback vaccine requirements. Another was to reform food, to remove artificial dyes, et cetera, which he has made some progress on. And then a third was really to rein in pesticide use and exposures to pesticides, which he has not. Had much success on, and so even on the vaccine front, there's been just several roadblocks heading his way, and there's mounting frustration from MAHA voters who wanted to see more action in the first year.

David Rind

00:08:31

Yeah, what are those roadblocks when it comes to vaccines?

Sarah Owermohle

00:08:33

Well, one of the most significant things that has happened is, in December, Kennedy decided to narrow the list of recommended vaccines in childhood. And this March, a federal judge in Massachusetts reversed those changes or essentially paused them, but also dismissed the members that Kennedy had appointed to a committee called the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, which is a long name for a group of federal advisors. He had in June dismissed all of the former members of that committee who were pediatricians, vaccine experts, et cetera, and appointed his own slate of people, many of whom have questioned the safety of vaccines, and who were, before this judge essentially paused their appointments to this committee, were discussing whether to delay hepatitis vaccines, whether to recommend COVID vaccines at all. So, very big changes were underway and a judge just stopped it.

David Rind

00:09:28

So Kennedy had cleaned house at this entire committee, tried to install his own folks, but a federal judge was like, no, you can't do that.

Sarah Owermohle

00:09:34

'Yeah, he said that he didn't follow proper federal protocol, but then the judge also basically questioned the credentials of everybody that was on that committee. He said something along the lines of only six of these people are qualified, and by name went through some of the others. And one of those people is a man named Robert Malone, who was an early pioneer in messenger RNA, which is the technology, of course, that is used in several of the COVID vaccines, but who has been, since COVID-19 started, a very outspoken critic of pandemic measures and also vaccines.

Dr. Robert Malone

00:10:05

My comments to Bobby when he called me and asked me to stay on and I said, no, I'm sorry, I've had enough, was that I just, I don't think the CDC is redeemable.

Sarah Owermohle

00:10:15

And so when this ruling came down, Malone actually resigned from the committee and he was on a podcast recently with another of Kennedy's prominent maha allies, Del Bigtree, saying that this is, quote, a hot mess.

Dr. Robert Malone

00:10:29

All you can say for sure is that the government did a horrid job.

Sarah Owermohle

00:10:36

And that the government did not do a good job in defending Kennedy and his priorities. Wow. But there's a lot of frustration around vaccines, around pesticides, and this is all kind of culminating in a nomination that has been held up for the Surgeon General, Casey Means. So she was, before the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee, more than a month ago testifying to be confirmed into this role, and her nomination has stalled.

David Rind

00:11:05

Yeah, tell me more about her, because I've kind of heard that name in relation to the maha movement, like who is she and why hasn't she been able to get through?

Casey Means

00:11:12

As a physician, I have always been inspired that the root of the word healing means to return to wholeness. Nothing is more urgent than restoring wholenes for Americans, physically, mentally, and societally.

Sarah Owermohle

00:11:27

'Yeah, so she was one of the most early sort of voices of the Maha movement, I would say. She was a Stanford-trained physician, though she doesn't have an active license now, which has been one of those sticking points.

Casey Means

00:11:38

There is another way, a path that unites rigorous science with reverence for our miraculous bodies and planet.

Sarah Owermohle

00:11:46

'She is the author of a best-selling book called Good Energy, which touts a lot of the Maha principles, like good eating, mindfulness. She does talk about using psychedelics in the book that also came up in her hearing. But she really is she's a young mother. She's been this longtime ally and really a vocal supporter of the most popular, I would say, common sense parts of Maha, like organic food and good nutrition. So at first, she didn't seem to be. Any sort of controversial figure compared to someone like say Kennedy who has been divisive.

Sen. Bill Cassidy

00:12:20

Doctor, would you encourage her to have her child vaccinated?

Casey Means

00:12:22

I'm not an individual's doctor and every individual needs to talk to their doctor before putting a medication in their body. I absolutely am supportive of the measles vaccine and I do believe vaccines save lives and are an important part of the public health strategy.

Sarah Owermohle

00:12:36

And also, the Surgeon General is not a policymaker. They do not have regulatory power. They're kind of the communicator for the health priorities of the administration. They're not supposed to be this lightning rod of controversy. So it's been really unusual that her nomination has been stalled like this.

David Rind

00:12:54

I mean, is there any hope of it moving forward? Like, who are the key players in charge of deciding whether it goes through?

Sarah Owermohle

00:13:00

There are three Republicans who seem to be sort of the key votes here that are holding this up.

Lauren Fox

00:13:06

Senator Cassidy, can you talk a little bit about the hearing yesterday with Casey Means? Were you satisfied with her answer on vaccine?

Sen. Bill Cassidy

00:13:17

I am not prepared yet to comment on the hearing yesterday. I'll just leave it at that.

Sarah Owermohle

00:13:22

One of them is the chairman, Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, who has been pretty vocally critical of Kennedy's vaccine changes and his comments. The other two are moderate Republicans, Senators Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Susan Collins of Maine.

Lauren Fox

00:13:38

Were you satisfied with her answers on vaccines?

Sen. Lisa Murkowski

00:13:41

Not on vaccines.

Sarah Owermohle

00:13:43

Who have also expressed alarm about some of Casey Means's views, but also Kennedy's views. So I would say that in some ways this vote on Casey Means is almost a proxy battle over Kennedy.

Sen. Lisa Murkowski

00:13:54

Certain representations that I had from Secretary Kennedy when he came through the confirmation process himself, and he made some statements about vaccine that I'm not seeing have been consistently applied.

David Rind

00:14:09

Oh, so like if Cassidy, who is an actual doctor himself, and some of these other Republicans maybe have some quibbles with how RFK is doing things, he's already on the job. Cassidy actually already voted for him, but now Means is up for a vote and they're kind of waffling.

Sarah Owermohle

00:14:24

Exactly. I think that's been the speculation. And it's hard to imagine it's not the case because just, again, to say how unusual this is for this to happen to a Surgeon General nominee. The last time that there even was a recorded vote on a Surge General, so like they went down the list of senators and said, do you vote yes, do vote no, was more than 10 years ago for Vivek Murthy's first nomination. And that was because he had made some comments about gun control. So most of the time a Surgent General literally just gets a voice vote and they're in. And this is just not this is the fact that we're even talking this much. It should not be this hard

David Rind

00:15:03

When we come back, Maha and the midterms. Stick around. Well, is any of this maybe an acknowledgement as well that some of these changes that Kennedy has tried to push through, especially when it comes to vaccines, just aren't playing that well with the average voter as we look towards the midterms?

Sarah Owermohle

00:15:27

I think it is an acknowledgement of that, and Means herself tried to say in the hearing that she was not intending to complicate this issue on vaccines. She did not want to make this one of her signature goals. But we've seen from polls that both childhood vaccinations are popular across the political spectrum. People are pretty confident in them and in their benefits. And that Kennedy's popularity has been slipping. So he, at one point, was seen as the most popular cabinet secretary. For trump but uh... He's been divisive it especially among republicans and regardless how you feel about him if you're at the party in power you don't want someone dividing your party and dividing you know the committee that's voting on your priorities and there were

David Rind

00:16:08

like a group of voters who maybe never voted for Republicans before, but they did vote for Trump in 2024, precisely because of what Kennedy was saying and what Trump was promising he would let Kennedy do. These, you know, MAHA voters, is that base big enough or loud enough to make any kind of actual difference in the midterms if they are dissatisfied with what they've been seen thus far?

Sarah Owermohle

00:16:31

'That's certainly the argument that they've been making. So it's groups like Maha Action, other Maha allies, vocal supporters have said, we were a decisive vote in Trump's re-election and we can be a decisive in the midterms. How true that is remains to be seen because there are a lot of broader top of mind issues for the average American, more in Iran, the economy, et cetera. But they're testing that claim out.

Reporter

00:16:55

Should parents be listening to the administration right now or to science?

Julia Letlow

00:17:00

'Yeah, so I've always been a firm supporter that vaccines should not be mandated. I've said that from day one and I-

Sarah Owermohle

00:17:09

and one of the places that they are is louisiana where they are backing a candidate who's vying for cassidy's uh... Seat in the senate Julia Letwow.

Julia Letlow

00:17:16

I am proud to be the only Maha endorsed candidate in this race. I am so proud that Maha is encouraging us to do better for our children to provide.

Sarah Owermohle

00:17:26

Another place that they're trying that out is in iowa where there's a very i would say salient maha message around pesticides and agriculture and so they've backed out of our yes yes big farming state and one of the uh... Highest rates of cancer in the entire country is in Iowa

Zach Lahn

00:17:43

I believe Big Ag and Big Pharma have rigged the system against Iowans. They've gouged our farmers on prices and lied to us about the safety of their products. I'll sue them, break up their monopolies, and make them answer for what they've done to Iowa.

Sarah Owermohle

00:17:58

And so, Maha has backed a Republican candidate for governor there, Zachary Lahn, who is seen as a long shot because it's a very crowded race, but he is vocally, you know, talking about these Maha issues in ways that I think that not many candidates have before.

David Rind

00:18:16

I do have to ask before we go because whether or not Kennedy's grip on the movement or on the CDC itself is kind of slipping, you still do see this regular effort for them to try to kind of sell what they've been doing here. And you know, even before this whole helicopter dustup at his house, there was this really video a few months ago of Kid Rock.

Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

00:18:38

Where's Kid?

David Rind

00:18:40

'With RFK Jr. Where they were drinking whole milk. At one point, Kennedy jumped into a cold plunge with jeans on. You have Dr. Oz and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth doing pull-ups. Hegseth also posted a video of him bench pressing over 300 pounds. His son was spotting him.

Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:18:59

There we go!

David Rind

00:19:02

What is going on with some of this stuff?

Sarah Owermohle

00:19:04

And a lot of it AI, too. There was a particular AI video of Kennedy drinking milk and then it's sort of evolving into him being in a nightclub. I don't know. And I don't know if you saw, too, that at CPAC, Kennedy was asked whether he or Hegseth was stronger.

Moderator

00:19:23

You or Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth? Come on, tell us, who's stronger?

Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

00:19:28

I think he's got a couple of, uh, I think he's a couple of pounds on me. All right.

Sarah Owermohle

00:19:38

He gave that to Hegsth. But it's a funny strategy and an odd tone. I think part of it is this idea of we're winning. One thing that is striking about it, to me, when I look at that is that there's this invisible enemy that's like, oh, they don't want you to drink whole milk. They don't you to exercise. They don't want you do these things. I think a lot of people would agree. I don't know. Exactly. It's like, it's like they don't want you to see this. But that's the thing that's, yeah, you kind of have to have an enemy to unite people. And so this idea that they conquered these forces and now you are allowed to have whole milk, I think is an important part of the way that they're messaging this.

David Rind

00:20:19

But I mean, that kind of runs into a problem when you hear someone like Dr. Robert Malone making comments who is saying that the CDC is basically a lost cause, that it's still under these, you know, control of whatever shadowy forces they kind of say, you know, how do you kind of square those things?

Sarah Owermohle

00:20:37

Right, and that brings up a really good point, too, is that we've been talking about the stalled nomination of the Surgeon General, which shouldn't have been controversial in the first place, but they still have to name someone to lead the CDC, and they haven't done that either. And so, it's kind of like if you can't get a Surgeon general nominee through, how are you going to find someone that can get through Senate confirmation to lead the CDC but can satisfy Kennedy and Maha people and also would want to lead the CDC, which has essentially been. Downsized and has had massive cuts and has its credibility questioned by the very people running the Health and Human Services Department. So who is that person?

David Rind

00:21:14

Yeah, and a real morale problem as well after the shooting last year outside the agency. I mean, it's just one hit after another. And if you have someone trying to bring in controversial ideas, then it's a whole other problem to deal with.

Sarah Owermohle

00:21:28

Absolutely.

David Rind

00:21:29

Well, Sarah, thank you very much for all this. I appreciate it.

Sarah Owermohle

00:21:32

No, thank you for having me.

David Rind

00:21:37

All right, that's all we've got today. Thank you so much as always for listening. As I say so often on the show, just leave a rating or a review wherever you're listening. It helps other people find the show. And the easiest thing you could do is just tell somebody about it. I don't even care if it's a stranger, blurt it out, it's fine with me. We'll be back on Wednesday. I'll talk to you then.

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