I'm Audie Cornish. This is The Assignment, and over the last year, we've seen plenty of stories about the resurgence of religion in America, especially among younger people. I remember talking about this on an old episode around the election of Pope Leo, because there is a major resurgence, for instance, of young men in the Catholic Church. But the thing is, the story doesn't end in the pews because at the same time, a very different kind of spiritual search is unfolding, one that's happening far outside traditional churches and synagogues.

I want you to feel your energy being connected, feel your energy being opened.

Here I am, sitting under some copper wires, surrounded by witches in the middle of a park in California, getting what I'm told is supposed to be a spiritual cleanse.

While some people are returning to religion, others are moving in the opposite direction towards modern witchcraft and paganism. And across all of these spaces, the pattern is the same. People are overwhelmed, institutions feel shaky, and there's just like growing desire for something more grounding, ancient, or frankly, something just more meaningful than what they've had before. So today I'm talking with CNN's Donie O'Sullivan, who is following these shifts up close. He's actually got a new series out called Devoted, and in it he's looking at how Americans are reshaping their spiritual lives, how they're questioning old norms, and building, let's call them new paths towards purpose in a moment that is defined by stress and uncertainty. So stay with us. Donie O'Sullivan, welcome back to the Assignment.

Thank you so much. Great to be back, Audie.

Now, I have something that I want you to hear to kind of set the stage for this conversation. Because we are about to talk about how people are kind of looking for spirituality in unlikely places, seeing in unlikely places, drawing from it from unlikely places. And as I was preparing for this interview, I saw this and thought, I need to ask him about this this in a way.

Now I'm nervous.

Yeah, okay, here we go.

Jesus was born out of a virgin mother. What's more virgin than a computer? If Jesus does return, even if Jesus was a physical person in the past, you don't think that he could return as artificial intelligence? Oh my god. Artificial intelligence could absolutely return as Jesus. Not just return as Jesus but return as Jesus with all the powers of Jesus. If you combine Tesla's Optimus Robot and the best foundational artificial intelligence model or whatever. It reads your mind and it loves you and it wants you doesn't care if you kill it 'cause it's gonna just go be with God again.

Okay, that was Joe Rogan on the American Alchemy Podcast. It's hosted by this guy, I think it's Jesse Michels. And this is a whole kind of like they were in a conversation about tech and you know, aliens, all kinds of things. But I wanted to play it because it took this strangely spiritual turn, right? And religious turn. And I thought you have people who, let's say Gen Z, they are gravitating numbers here and there towards almost like stricter versions of various religions, right? It's like they're not going to church, they're going to an Orthodox church. Like, and especially young men, which I know you've kind of dabbled in this world as well, and talked to these folks.

I was a young man once.

You were, you were. We'll talk about that in part six. But but so that's interesting, right? This movement towards a kind of religiosity. And people are debating whether that is something that is like hand in hand with conservatism or these other things. And then there are the people you've been talking to, people who maybe are find themselves as outsiders to their communities and cultures.

'Yeah. And yeah, I think there's like there's a thing where I guess the it's the online age and also maybe Gen Z where like people people now, whatever their bit is, they're very committed to it. Like they wanna be committed to the committed to the bit. You know, whether it's like whether it is going to-

Committed to the spiritual bit.

Well, whether it's going to like Barry's boot camp or whether it's being a Swiftie or whether it is being an Eastern Orthodox Christian, you know, I think as people try and find identity and also I guess assert an identity, especially online, and find those communities online. And we've obviously seen this with like QAnon and all the sort of other things over the years, but like the the way to really get in on those online communities, right, is to be all in in real life. I mean, what's been interesting with this trend, and and there's been some good reporting on this, when you mention, you know, young men moving towards more very conservative, very orthodox versions of Christianity. After the election last year, there was a lot of talk about the manosphere.

Yeah.

'That that is what I found. I've spent a lot of time listening to some of these sort of super conservative Christian- a lot of specifically Catholic actually influencers, who are they've popped themselves into the manosphere world. And in the sort of more toxic parts of the manosphere world, there's very much there's the sort of Andrew Tates of like subjugate women, you know, make women submissive. And what these super conservative Catholic guys have found, they've said, wait, we have a book for that. We have a we have a two thousand year old book that you can read that that in their tradition, we've been reading it in this way for for years, where yes, we do subjugate women and we we subjugate all other sorts of people too.

Though the flip side is that is they're offering a role to young men who feel like the culture is leaving them behind in the conversation about how to be, right? Like we know what we want women to be, and there's many kids' books and all kinds of fun stuff. And for for boys and men, right, this is the conversation. People are not doing somehow a good enough job helping them navigate their role in society as it is right now. And all of these spiritual practices have very defined roles for men. And that that's appealing. That's the that's the my translation of your argument.

If the primary appeal of like these elements of Christianity are the subjugation of women part and and like men being in this totally dominant role, like that is that I think we could say that that's negative, right? And I think in s in in a lot of ways, like figuring out this question of fate and men embracing some of these more extreme parts of religion, it's the sort of same question that the Democratic Party is trying to figure out before 2028, right? It's it's like how do we create a space for men online, or how can we capture some of the male audience online that isn't going into the super conservative or into the MAGAsphere or whatever else? And I don't don't have that figured out yet.

Yeah, but it's central to the question we're talking about here because for the people who are in those faith communities that are gaining ground with conservatives, what they say is, look, we're offering something. You guys don't offer anything. Secularism doesn't offer anything. And I do think it's interesting that there are people who are still interested in being spiritual.

'Mm-hmm.

Right, that's what the Pew research has found. Like people may still be spiritual, they may still believe in a God, even if they're not feeling the traditional organized religion the way that their parents did. And I do think that's relevant to the world of people you were talking to who were like into being Wiccans. What did you observe in terms of like practices or like what does that even mean in this modern age to be a practicing Wiccan?

I think what what a lot of people are drawn to Wiccanism and Witchcraft is is that you can sort of make it what you want it to be. And a lot of the people we met in Salem and we also met witches out in California, in in Long Beach. A lot of the witches I met were people who were also in the LGBTQ community. And many of them had a sort of similar story of growing up in the church, growing up Christian, being told that they were bad people because of who they are, and then finding in in witchcraft acceptance, right?

But they actually let you participate.

They did.

Which so which surprised me. I heard you, you know, whispering your own name. Like can you give me an example of like what does the practice look like today?

'So I mean, Salem was where the the witch trials happened. I think one thing that sort of perfectly encapsulates Salem today is that there was, I think, two churches primarily involved in Salem in the in the witch trials. One of the churches is still there today. It is now a Unitarian church and it is being it's being run by a queer woman. So just in terms of the transformation of Salem in terms of a place that was demonizing women and a church that is demonizing women, Salem is now a place where everything is practiced very openly. People are extremely open. I mean, in many ways there's big parts of it, which is like a sort of Disneyland of witchcraft. And to be honest with you, everybody I spoke to there had different versions. There wasn't a dogma as such, there wasn't a doctrine that they were going with. And but I think that was part of the appeal to it in that there is something here, there's a higher purpose here. They also spoke of the importance of their sort of being a history and a lore there that they can be part of a tradition, but there isn't one thing that we need to stick to. And so I think a lot of us sort of practice Catholic- Catholicism in that sort of way.

'I was just gonna say that term. It's like cafeteria style Christianity, also, right? Like this idea of these are the parts I'm comfortable with, these are the parts I'm not, and I will go forth that way. It's interesting thinking about this, though, in the context of the manosphere and the push by some young men and some quarters to go towards more orthodox versions of organized religion, right? So you have like this, maybe people you encountered, a queer community that's gravitating towards something that is more open and open to them in their position in the culture as well, right? And then you have these men gravitating towards something that is more open and sort of exalting of their position in the culture. Like people aren't just looking for spirituality, they're looking to be, I guess I don't know what the word is. It's like not just accepted, but kind of-

Empowered.

Yeah.

'I think people are gravitating to what- cause today, but also throughout history, but but especially today, you know, we all feel a bit untethered, I think, to to reality to each other. And I think the men of the manosphere and the the queer people of of witchcraft are are coming from very different places, but I think there's they're both trying striving to be empowered, right? And when it comes to LGBTQ people that that I had spoken to, is that you know, there's something very powerful about taking a tradition, witchcraft, which has been historically demonized, and then pairing that with their own community, who who is still demonized today, the the queer community, and taking taking all of that, taking all of this tradition and saying, actually, do you know what? Witches should never have been demonized, just like we should have never been demonized. And we're gonna take all this together now, and and this is our thing, because this is witches have been cast aside and we have been cast aside, and that's empowering.

We're talking to Donie O'Sullivan about his new show, Devoted, joins people on their spiritual journeys. Stay with us. So where do the aliens come in? Which is another thing that came up in Devoted. And I thought Donie's really expanding the definition here. You looked at aliens and you looked at like ethical consumption, like people who are like eating roadkill, like tackle either one for me.

You know, as you and I have discussed for years, my beat has normally been focused around a lot of extremism, far right mostly, some far left, a lot of hate groups. So it's always been sort of pretty negative manifestations of of community. And for my own mental health, maybe I I I thought it'd be nice to look at some communities who are manifesting differently. And who still that still might seem odd or strange to people. And yes, I've spent a good deal of time over the last year hanging out with people who very much believe in aliens and UFOs. And this is where you'll say, Donie, we've lost you.

No, no, no. Cause remember in Congress they started talking about like unidentified objects or something and it sort of like revived the conversation.

Yeah.

On the one hand. On the other hand, Saturday Night Live still has that like running skit of people who have been taken by aliens and they depict them as total crazy people. Like as totally malfunctioning.

And look, there's no shortage of crazy people anywhere, with any group of people. When it comes to aliens...

Go there, get it.

'You know, we we went to it was called "contact in the desert." It was earlier earlier in the year in Palm Desert in California. But a lot of people you could tell had some form of genuine- so I mean, whatever they saw could have been lights in the sky, it could have been whatever, but whatever that was stuck with them and and in some cases fundamentally changed them, right? Like it they had this thing that they that almost that they would prefer that they hadn't seen because of the stigma that goes with some of this stuff. And that's been quite interesting actually, because with with as you mentioned, all the congressional stuff around this, like for years, for decades, UFO people have sort of been, you know, like you're the crazies.

You're the foil hat people, yeah.

'Yeah. And and for some of these folks now, there's and you know, there's a lot of people, of course, who try to get rich and famous and sell their stories on this, but then there's also a lot of people like we saw what I think these Navy pilots over the last few years where like they saw something and they didn't want to speak out because of the stigma and they felt like, well, maybe I am going crazy. There's something there now to them to think, Oh my God, maybe I- you know, maybe maybe maybe I'm not crazy. Maybe there is something, I don't know what it is. So there's something like profound that's happening there on that level.

And I'm not picking on you. I think part of it is I wanted to know why did you sweep some of these things under the umbrella of devotion and the devoted? You know what I mean? Like as you're looking at the topics, how in your mind did you frame it?

'Oh, people I mean, people are totally devoted to this. You know, this is their religion. This is their faith. This is what they believe in. And the reason I've been was charmed, I would say, by the UFO community, is that their message is, well, we should all come together as humanity. Because if there are these forces beyond this world, whether they be good or bad, it's important that all of us come together because you know, we we we can't be fighting among each other. And I just found that message so- I don't it was just such, yeah, but it was so refreshing. It was so refreshing compared to all the other stuff I've had to deal with.

What I'm learning, Donie, is you were in a tough place after following all this extremism stuff.

I said off air before we started, I was like, I've been wanting to talk about this and I I think you can now you're like, Oh God, he really does want to talk about this.

'No, no, I'm fascinated. Cause I'll tell you something. This interview is a is a do-over for me because one of our producers, who is amazing, pitched me Etsy witches, like the world of people on Etsy who you can like pay to like put a hex on someone or something. I don't know all of it. And then they were like banned from Etsy. And I was just like, this is this is too much. I can't do this. This is not serious. And then I saw you basically doing a whole series on it. And I realized, like, okay, let me turn around from my own biases and and try and figure out what people are looking for. Because we hear a lot of things described as like religion. I've been hearing people say, oh, the obsession with AI, that's the tech right's religion. You know? Yeah. And we heard that Rogan clip earlier. Like, I feel like people between their tarot cards and their astrology and their Etsy witches, that they are just looking anywhere.

'I mean so two things. One, like when it comes to the Etsy witches, right? This is the thing. I think like in any system of beliefs, you can look to some part of any movement and say, okay, this is not serious, or these are grifters. And look, many of them are, right? But also, like, you know, I've been to St. Peter's Square of the Vatican. There's there's a ton of non-Christians selling Christian merch there, you know. Is a lot of the witch stuff on TikTok and Instagram BS? Of course it is. Like, do these people really not believe it? Of course not. Same with religion. When it comes to the AI and belief- tell me because we've we just shot this episode, have you heard of simulation theory?

I'm in the simulation theory Reddit thread, my friend. I'm obsessed with these people, but I'm obsessed watching them be obsessed. That there's a world of people who, yes, they for various reasons look at AI and think a higher power is coming, or we're the on the eve of evoking this higher power. And it does sound very mystic adjacent, I'll just say.

'It absolutely is. Absolutely is. Yeah, I spent the past few weeks hanging out with people who believe that we live in the matrix. So for for those who are not aware, simulation theory is this idea that we live in some sort of simulated world or a video game, or or just want to think about it, The Matrix, the movie. I mean, it sounds so absurd. And I think this is where this all blends together and where it kind of comes back to what Rogan was saying. And Rogan, by the way, has spoken quite a bit about simulation theory as well. But for for one part of this show that's coming out in a few weeks on simulation theory, we went to a supposedly haunted house in Kansas with a ghost hunter, as one does. Basically, this guy who's believed in ghosts for a long time and has had these experiences and whatnot. He's very interested now in simulation theory. And and all of that to say is that he is questioning now whether what he has been experiencing, what he always thought were were ghosts, right? Like and what you think of as a ghost, like a sort of spirit that's moved left this world, into well, actually, are these not ghosts, but are they other- are they people outside of the simulation, literally a glitch in the matrix? And look, again, who are we to say if who are we to say if any of this is wrong or right? It all sounds crazy.

Yeah, it gets into philosophy. Like these are age old sort of philosophical ideas, but there's something about the new technology, the sort of freight train of the new technology that has accelerated or I take that back, expanded the world of people who talked about this and talked like this.

'Yeah, I don't wanna compare the simulation theory guys to Galileo, but the church, as Galileo and others were sort of figuring out the cosmos, like that initially was say, well, that goes against our understanding in this in a religious and and just a sort of conventional thinking sense of that the sun and stars move around the sun and moon, etcetera move around like this. And then eventually, of course, you know, as that got proven over time as our understanding of it changed. There is a feeling, and this is a big feeling in Silicon Valley, among the sort of top echelon, that like that we are kind of especially with AI and the power of AI in terms of how it can expand the capacity to to research and to understand and to find discoveries, is that maybe we are on the verge of figuring out something else that is some part of of of life and how we're here in the first place. And I guess so I think we're kind of like in that moment where it's a very-

It is. The flip side is the zealotry that comes from that, right? Like then so many things are justified if you believe you're working towards truly a greater good, truly something that shifts humanity. Like I think that what you said about people being committed to the bit, I know it's a joke, but it also like there are ways that our intensity culturally, whether it's partisanship or these other elements or stan culture, you know, around music and celebrities, it just leads us to a place of extremes.

'Absolutely. And that is what's happening. And, you know, I've I've actually sort of seen it with some of the people obviously in in the alien stuff, in this stuff, but that also has happened I mean, you know, born again Christians, they're the Christians who are most likely to totally lecture you and bore you and be so dogmatic about their understanding of Christianity, right? So-

But I'm bringing it up because I think when people look at like Pew research and things like that, it's the people who are in the middle where there's decline. So it's not the born again Christians, right? It's sort of like the mid level church goer.

Yes.

Like that world of people is actually getting smaller and and in that way that's quite similar to our politics. The world of people in the middle.

'Yeah, and I think if you go on the evening news, right, and bring up UFOs, like oftentimes the anchor or the reporter will have to like have a wry smile or like somewhat roll their eyes or sort of signal to the audience, by the way, I know- we know this is crazy. And I don't think people are as into that anymore. You know, I I think they want to be sort of more open minded. I don't necessarily know will this get us all to a better place, because so much of the stuff that's being discussed on Rogan is dumb and is so ill informed and is frankly toxic and bad. But I guess there's there's gotta be a happier medium, right, where organizations like ours and industries like ours can sort of be more open to these conversations.

Well, Donie, I don't know how you got to this place, but I'm glad you're there exploring all of this, exploring all this.

I need help. Help me.

Thank you so much for talking with us.

Thank you, Audie.

Donie O'Sullivan, CNN senior correspondent covering the intersection of politics and technology, his new series Devoted is available on CNN All Access. And thanks to all of you, we'll see you next week.