podcast
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Every Thursday on The Assignment, host Audie Cornish explores the animating forces of this extraordinary American political moment. It’s not about the horse race, it’s about the larger cultural ideas driving the conversation: the role of online influencers on the electorate, the intersection of pop culture and politics, and discussions with primary voices and thinkers who are shaping the political conversation.
Are College Athletes Cashing In and Killing the Game?
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Mar 20, 2025
For decades, college athletes made millions for everyone but themselves. Now, the NCAA’s Name, Image, and Likeness policy, NIL, has changed the game. Audie dives into the chaos of NIL with former All-American gymnast Savannah Schoenherr and Washington Post writer Jesse Dougherty to find out who’s winning, who’s losing, and what it's like navigating America’s latest “wild west.” And will it change the way you experience college sports?
Episode Transcript
Audie Cornish
00:00:00
Sportswriting clichés are legend, and March Madness is the worst of it. Everyone's tickets are punched for the big dance and a chance at a Cinderella story. I mean, you get the idea. But right now, the biggest story, the biggest sports story is off the court. Young people, once the bit players in the NCAA's $1.4 billion game, are getting a slice of the pie. See, I can do it too. Partly because of growing legal pressure, the association said it would no longer ban students from making money off their name, image and likeness. And there is just one cliche being used to describe the shift.
News Clip
00:00:40
The NCAA blew it. And so now we have the wild, wild West.
News Clip
00:00:44
It's kind of like the wild, wild West out there.
News Clip
00:00:45
But now we have the wild wild West called NIL and Transfer portal. I don't like it.
Audie Cornish
00:00:50
In 2021, the NCAA put into place new rules that sent tremors through the community of coaches, recruiters, athletic directors, boosters, and yes, student athletes. They were no longer banned from accepting gifts, doing deals with brands, and or getting paid for what they do best: play. Formally the official rules are that there is no pay for play. Students cannot be paid directly by schools. That's not how it's coming off.
News Clip
00:01:19
The number one recruit for next season is going to BYU and I go, I'll be damned. Probably going to cost, I don't know. Did you see the numbers? Is it like $7 million for this kid?
Audie Cornish
00:01:33
So with March Madness tipping off this week, we're digging into NIL. Who's winning, who's losing and who's calling the shots? And what does it mean for the idea of amateur sports? I'm Audie Cornish, and this is The Assignment. The most obvious winners so far in the emerging sports economy are basketball players.
Game Montage
00:01:58
Here comes Clark. Look at Clark. Clark. Clark. Oh, my. Welcome to the National Championship game!
Audie Cornish
00:02:07
Last March, the women's basketball national championship got a record shattering 18.9 million viewers. That's more than 4 million more than the men. The surge in popularity was fueled by a class of superstar players. LSU's Angel Reese. Iowa's Caitlin Clark.
State Farm Ad
00:02:25
Rookie move. I was a rookie once. Caitlin Clark. Aren't you rookie of the year? That was last year.
Jesse Dougherty
00:02:30
If you think about last year, Caitlin Clark showing up in State Farm commercials.
Audie Cornish
00:02:35
Jesse Daugherty is a Washington Post reporter who covers NIL and the business of college sports.
Jesse Dougherty
00:02:41
'That was usually reserved for Chris Paul, right, who was like a multi-time All-Star in the NBA. And if you actually really look at it, you're way more often seeing women stars in those spots, in those really high profile commercials, brand deals, Instagram posts than you are players on the men's side. Think about how many more people see Caitlin Clark set the record when Nike puts out an ad right away on Instagram and TV, right? I mean, that just explodes.
Audie Cornish
00:03:04
'And with this NIL policy, there's a renewed conversation about gender and who gets paid what in sports. A conversation made possible by the deregulation at the collegiate level. The problem with deregulation was that the NCAA wasn't exactly sure what this new market in collegiate sports should even look like for the average student. Savannah Schoenherr was an All-American gymnast at the University of Florida when Nil went into effect back in 2021. Making money from her sport was not her original dream.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:03:39
I grew up watching the Olympians on TV. You know, I started watching the 2008 Olympics, and so from then on I was like, I want to be like those girls. I was like, I'm going to go to the Olympics, and then I'll go to college afterwards. Before NIL was even passed, since gymnastics is such a high impact sport on your body, a lot of the times gymnasts would either have to choose between college or the Olympics, because if you were to take endorsements and sponsorships and stuff like that, you weren't able to go to college. And so unlike other sports where you go to college as your typical track and then either get drafted midway through college or you finish your degree and go on to the pros, gymnastics was very much like 21, 22 is your ending point.
Audie Cornish
00:04:25
You're saying something that I didn't understand about gymnastics in particular when you said, because it's hard on your body, it actually forced a choice.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:04:35
Yes, I knew that if I went to the Olympics and accepted any type of money, then college gymnastics would be out of the picture because you were considered an amateur anymore. But like now, in the world of college gymnastics, we have gymnasts like Suni Lee, who won an Olympic gold medal and then went and competed for Auburn. Jade Carey, who won an Olympic gold medal and competes for Oregon. And we have a lot of these people and gymnasts in the space that just was very rare before and you didn't really see it as much. And now NIL has allowed gymnasts to live out both of their dreams, all while still monetizing off of their name, image and likeness, which is so cool.
Audie Cornish
00:05:17
So due to some kind of court challenges, the conversation in college sports turned to name, image, and likeness. Whether or not students should be able to basically monetize off any of those things that went into effect in 2021. How old were you then? Where were you kind of in your athletic journey?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:05:40
I was going into my senior year of college. I was almost 21, and so I was like, oh, like I went three years of college without experiencing NIL.
Audie Cornish
00:05:51
But you were hearing about it, right, like I guess what I'm asking is, were athletes paying attention to this debate?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:05:58
Honestly, for me personally, there wasn't a lot of talk around it, at least at Florida amongst my team. It kind of just popped out of nowhere for me. It was just like the few like weeks or months leading up to it was like, oh, like they're talking about NIL passing. And it was like this foreign thing that I had never really even heard of or kept up with. Like, I was just like tunnel vision on gymnastics. And so all the outside noise, I kind of blocked out. And so then it was like, oh, well, this could be kind of cool because I can still do my sport and I can potentially make money off of it.
Audie Cornish
00:06:36
How was it explained to you then? Like when can you recall when you really first heard and understood what the new rules could mean for you?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:06:45
'For me personally, a lot of our staff didn't really want to talk about it at first. I think just out of fear of spreading false education and not educating us properly over something that they had not fully grasped yet either. And so a lot of it was just self-education and really just going at it for yourself and making what you want for it. So if you want to do anything with NIL, that was up to you. And if not, then that was also up to you.
Audie Cornish
00:07:13
So how did you decide to enter the market, so to speak?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:07:17
I vividly remember July 1st, 2021. I made a little graphic on Canva and I was like, hey, my name is Savannah. I'm a gymnast at University of Florida and I am open for like, business. I don't know. Something along those lines, like something super cheesy, but I posted on my Instagram just in hopes that brands would be like, okay, so she she definitely wants to jump headfirst into this NIL thing.
Audie Cornish
00:07:41
It's interesting because for your generation in particular, not just of athletes, but across the board: being a brand ambassador. Right. Trying to get marketing opportunities. I feel like that's your native tongue. Like people do that because they're very good at makeup, because of the way they dress, because whatever, like being an influencer. So in a way, you had an advantage, I would think.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:08:04
Definitely. Yeah. I really leaned into the sports space. And I obviously as a D1 athlete, I value my nutrition and my health and my lifestyle and the way that I take care of my body a lot. And so I was reaching out to protein brands, supplement brands, protein bars, athletic clothing that I could wear outside of the gym. You know, just things that I felt really aligned with my brand. So that was really cool for me.
Audie Cornish
00:08:27
Yeah. It's cool. Were you seeing other students get even more?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:08:33
Definitely. Yeah. It was it was almost a game of comparison at first and not necessarily a bad comparison, but more just like ideas, creativity. I was seeing what other student athletes were doing with NIL and how they were making the most of it, and I was like, oh, that's super cool. I can do that too. And if they can do it, that I can do it.
Audie Cornish
00:08:53
So you're not seeing like the quarterbacks sail past you in a car or something like that, you know, from the local, you know, from the local dealership.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:09:00
You know, I was realistic, I was realistic, I was like, okay, the quarterbacks are getting cars. I'm personally not going to get a car. I'm good with a can of protein if that's what I get, right now
Audie Cornish
00:09:11
All right. So I understand at one point you're reaching out, but you actually have someone send you an email, right from a marketing director. And they were offering you a chance to model. Tell me how that worked out.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:09:24
I thought their idea of modeling was super cool. So I get this email saying, hey, we're from this notable brand. I'm not even going to say the brand because it's...
Audie Cornish
00:09:33
So it really was a notable brand?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:09:35
'It was a it was a notable brand. I looked them up like a few million on Instagram. I was like, this is really cool. Like, this could be a great opportunity to really get my foot in the door with brand deals and NIL. And so I respond, I'm like, yeah, I love this. Like they're like, okay, like fill out like your size form send your like location where we could come and meet you for a photo shoot, pick out a few pieces that you like. Seemed all very legit at first. And so they were like, okay, like, we are going to send you a check in the mail so that way you can reserve the location spot. And I was like, red flag, big red flag. And like, this is weird. I don't think I should have to do this as the athlete slash influencer in this scenario. But I was like, I'm going to go with it anyway and just kind of see. So I go to the bank and I try to deposit the check. The check bounces. And so they, the brand starts -- the brand -- starts reaching back out to me. They're like, hey, did you deposit the check? Could you please Zelle this money to this account to reserve the location and I'm like, hey, like, unfortunately, no, this check was not a real check. Kind of like called them out for being a scammer. And that was that. And thankfully, you know, I listen to my mom growing up saying, you know, never send money to anybody, never accept payment before you do something and kind of learning all those things.
Audie Cornish
00:11:02
I'm wondering, like, where are your parents in this? Where are your coaches in this? Like are other players talking about being scammed? Like, where are the adults in the early time of this NIL craziness?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:11:15
I think still learning before then. I think a lot of it still is just very foreign, just how to navigate brand deals in general. And so I think it was a lot of just learning for yourself and probably a lot of athletes out there getting scammed in a lot of brands and people recognizing that NIL is so new and saying like, oh, this is so new people don't know what they're doing. This is the perfect opportunity to scam.
Audie Cornish
00:11:37
Do you think that the school or the NCAA could have done more?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:11:42
I think the NCAA could have provided a little bit more education around NIL to its student athletes before the passing of the bill, if that makes sense. Yeah. Again, like, who's so different? I had no idea. And the people around me really had no idea.
Audie Cornish
00:12:06
I'm talking with former gymnast Savannah Schoenherr. We'll be back in a minute.
Audie Cornish
00:12:12
Athletes and parents who want to get in on all this action? Well, they've got to get up to speed quickly on contracts and reading the fine print. I actually went back to Jesse Daugherty from The Washington Post because honestly, given the long running conversation about student compensation, I didn't totally get how messy this all was.
Jesse Dougherty
00:12:32
The reason why this was especially was chaotic was because the NCAA for decades failed to address the very glaring inequity of athletes making zero money in $1 billion industry. And then the change almost happened overnight, that they could start to make money with basically no rules and essentially no plan for how to do that.
Audie Cornish
00:12:56
And it's complicated. You have massive sports programs at huge state universities, tiny colleges that have standout programs here and there, even commuter schools. Jesse Daugherty says, like, all these places have different standards and different goals.
Jesse Dougherty
00:13:11
I think the first thing I would tell anyone is that until this point, schools do not pay athletes directly. So now it's okay. Who does? Right. And there's a lot of different ways. There's the major deals Gatorade, State Farm. There's the smaller deals. Mom and pop shops. And then there's the boosters, who have always had a big influence in college sports. They've now just been able to do that above the table in a way that, you know, for decades it was so clandestine. And we have the bagman and you're passing along money in McDonald's bags or handshakes after the game. Now they're able to give to these booster groups. They're called collectives. And the collectives sort of reroute this money. And what you're seeing now is that they're paying sort of de facto salaries.
Audie Cornish
00:13:53
These collectives are kind of like the sports equivalent of political campaigns, super PACs, especially in basketball and football. They're unregulated groups that can raise and spend money in ways that schools cannot, like paying students directly for events and endorsements, connecting them with brands, offering these student athletes all kinds of financial support. In the meantime, the top players are like transferring left and right to the highest bidder, so to speak. It's really shaking up teams and frustrating coaches.
60 Minutes, Dan Hurley
00:14:25
50% of my roster or more is at least, you know, considering going in the portal. If not.
Audie Cornish
00:14:32
Here's Coach Dan Hurley on 60 minutes on CBS. Players on his back to back national champion Yukon team are already eyeing the exits.
60 Minutes, Dan Hurley
00:14:42
Well half your team is already thinking in terms of whether they want to transfer to another program or not. Yeah, and in a couple of those cases, they've already talked to the coaching staff at future school and have an idea of what their NIL is going to be there. The money. Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:15:00
Here's another issue. Money that makes its way to individual students could mean that athletic departments have less to help fund I don't know, the swim coach's salary or the softball team's equipment or the gymnastics facilities. And that brings us back to Savannah. What do you think when you are reading the paper today? Right. Or online because it sounds like you would not be reading a physical paper. What do you think when you see in the headlines news about payouts to football players to basketball players. All the things that have been facilitated for those major athletes on big campuses.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:15:40
Honestly, this is very opinionated. I think it's absurd, though. I mean, you know, there's 16, 17, 18 year olds getting promised millions and millions and millions of dollars just to go play their sport. And kudos to them. That is awesome that they have become so good at their sport that schools want to offer them this insanely large amount of money to come and play for them. I honestly, I think it's insane though. You know, me personally, and I could probably speak for so many girls I know in my sport that came to college and even continue to come to college now. Not for the Nil money, not because they can make a name for themselves on social media or put a big check in their bank account. But because they love their sport and because they want to continue doing their sport and doing it for the connectivity and relationships, and because they are just trying to live out their four year old little girls dream, you know, it becoming so much about money now is just crazy to me. And I think it's taking away a lot from the sports because it's all about a paycheck at the end of the day.
Audie Cornish
00:16:56
'Can you talk to me more about that? Is that something you're hearing from young athletes now? Is that just your sense? And trust me, I don't mind you having an opinion on this. And I ask because there there are people who have always said, look, college students are amateurs. We shouldn't treat them like professionals. And the counter-argument was, well, you already are. You're making a ton of money off of them. So it sounds like in your mind, though, that something has been lost with the introduction. You know, of this, yeah, kind of payments to to players.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:17:30
Definitely, I again I think NIL is great I think making money off your name, image and likeness is amazing. And I don't think that opportunity should ever be taken away from student athletes. I just think that some of it has gone a little too far with just signing big bonuses just to come to a school. Because at that point you're not doing anything. That's just like what I talk about, and I tell people, you know, NIL is what you make it and you have to put in the work, it's like a job. And so I understand that these athletes are so good at their job or their sport that they're getting these insanely large amounts of money. But you can also look at it the way of like, they're not necessarily doing anything to work, like they're just signing a paper to come to a school like that that doesn't even account to all of the brand deals that they're going to get, or the now pay to play that they might get. And so I think, I think it's just personally taking it a little too far with all of this stuff and taking away opportunities from programs that are getting cut and scholarships that are getting cut and stuff like that from the other less mainstream sports.
Audie Cornish
00:18:40
So now you're no longer competing, right? But what are you hearing from young athletes about how this is starting to affect their sports and or their sports programs? Right. If they're not part of the like, kind of huge televised mainstream sports?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:18:59
Yeah. I mean, I've I've seen social media posts of programs getting cut, a lot of swimming and diving programs getting cut. Gymnastics cuts were already prevalent before NIL. And now that there are still less mainstream sports, I think it's going to be an even more common theme.
Audie Cornish
00:19:20
That's crazy to hear, because I do think about women's gymnastics as a huge sport, right? Obviously, they're just such a highlight of the Olympics for the United States. But you're saying even those kinds of sports would see less?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:19:35
Yes.
Audie Cornish
00:19:36
Now you work for LSU's gymnastics team. Do you get questions from young athletes about your experiences? Do they want to know about NIL?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:19:45
Oh, 100%. I get FaceTime calls. I get text messages from the girls whenever they need something, or if they just see me in the gym that day, they'll come up and ask, you know, like if I can help with a contract that they were sent, that a brand reached out to them, or that they want to work with a brand. And I'm really happy that I can provide any sort of education to the generation of athletes that are wanting to learn more and wanting to put more of their time into monetizing off of their brand.
Audie Cornish
00:20:14
Yeah, but is it weird and sad? Shouldn't they be asking you like gymnastic stuff?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:20:19
Honestly, no, because I think at the age of college gymnastics at least you have all your skills. You know what it means to be a gymnast. And it's obviously learning how to compete in a new environment. But a lot of college gymnastics, and I would assume a lot of college sports, is learning how to be a person. And learning how to be an adult and learning how to survive in the real world, and surviving without your parents and doing all of these new things. And yes, obviously a lot of attention, time, effort, energy, all of the above go into your sport. And that is arguably the main reason that you're there is for your sport.
Audie Cornish
00:21:03
Savannah that is not the main reason that you're there, right? That's the problem. That's what this whole debate is about. That is not the reason that you're there. And so does any of this make sense to you now?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:21:13
I know yeah, it definitely is. Just like I mean, but you do like you commit to the school for gymnastics. Like I ended up at Florida because of gymnastics and I ended up at LSU because of gymnastics. And yes, there obviously were a lot of other factors that went into it. But when I was searching for schools, I was searching for gymnastics.
Audie Cornish
00:21:33
But think about how that would have changed if somewhere else, I don't know, Kalamazoo Tech or whatever. I'm making that up, said to you. "Actually, no. We can offer you more support, more resources, and that comes to you in the way of brand deal sponsorships and money." That would have changed who you are today.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:21:56
A hundred percent. And I think it would have made the recruiting process a lot, a lot more difficult, for sure. And I can't speak because I'm not in that position and that's not how my recruiting process went. But I just know that me personally, I value a lot of other things way more than I do money, and so I don't think that would have really been a factor in my decision making process.
Audie Cornish
00:22:19
But you don't know.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:22:20
Again. Yes. Like I said, I'm not living that. And I did not go through the recruiting process with that. I can only speak on how I am now as a 24 year old outside of college. That that wouldn't have been a factor. But I don't know as a 17 or 18 year old in the recruiting process.
Audie Cornish
00:22:39
One of the things I'm wrestling with is at the start of this conversation, you you said something like you kept your expectations low. Is that because you're a woman? Is that because of the sport you're in? Like to you what are the realities of the market for NIL?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:22:57
I honestly think it was more of a me thing. I think that I just...
Audie Cornish
00:23:02
But we joked about the quarterback. Yeah, it feels like we we both can see the math here and the way it's working out. You were a top athlete in your sport and your expectations were completely different.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:23:14
Definitely. I mean, I do recognize that that is unfortunately, how society works is how males are most likely going to be paid more than females, especially when it comes to sports.
Audie Cornish
00:23:28
When I look at, let's say, Livy Dunne, a fellow LSU gymnast, I mean, she's got 5.4 million followers on Instagram. Are there lessons that you think people can take away from how she's navigated this?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:23:45
'I think -- I call her Liv -- I think Liv has handled her brand and her situation beautifully. You know, it's hard gaining that much attention on social media. And Liv handles it all with such grace. And not only that, but she also works to bring more representation to women's sports and bringing more opportunities to female athletes at LSU, for example, through what she has called the Livy Fund, where she has brands come specifically, and she donates a portion of her earnings to other female student athletes that can monetize through their name, image and likeness, which is so admirable.
Audie Cornish
00:24:36
Savannah. What I hear are athletes taking this on because it's an opportunity and it's exciting. I also hear that it's like taking on the responsibility without much support. And is this changing what it means to be a student athlete completely?
Savannah Schoenherr
00:24:56
I think so. I think so, yes. I definitely think it's impacting college athletics in every sport from golf, swimming, soccer, gymnastics to the big mainstreams football and basketball.
Audie Cornish
00:25:10
And the wild thing is, it might impact you even if you don't want it to write if your program gets cut as a result.
Savannah Schoenherr
00:25:17
A hundred percent.
Audie Cornish
00:25:18
Savannah Schoenherr competed as a gymnast at the University of Florida and Louisiana State University. She's now a special assistant to the head coach at LSU. This is The Assignment. It's a production of CNN audio. This episode was produced by Jesse Remedios. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dzula is our technical director. And Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN audio. We had support from Dan Bloom, Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. And as always, I want to thank you for listening. I'm Audie Cornish.
