You have to stand up to a bully. I don't think you can lay down and play dead. You have to look that bully in the eye, and you can't blink.

Texas State Representative James Talarico, along with dozens of his Democratic colleagues, captured the nation's attention this week. They fled the state to try and prevent Republicans from redrawing the state's congressional map. The redistricting effort is being pushed by President Trump himself in an attempt to gain five more U.S. House seats for Republicans. Representative Talarico spoke to me Wednesday afternoon from Illinois, where he's been staying to deny Republicans the quorum they need to pass their bill. He's been one of the most vocal Texas Democrats leading this charge, and he's also being described as a rising star in his party. I'm CNN Washington Bureau Chief and Political Director David Chalian, and this is the CNN Political Briefing. Stay with us. Representative Talarico, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

Thanks for having me, David.

So I imagine as you all, your colleagues in the Texas Democratic Caucus, prepared for this moment of political battle and strategy, is it sort of playing to script so far in terms of the threats being made by the governor or the attorney general of the state, what you guys are experiencing outside of the State? Is it sort going to script as you all sort of plotted it out?

It's not, unfortunately. There have been quorum breaks in Texas in the past. This is part of our state's constitution. It's a power that the minority has to check the majority. And I've been a part of one of those quorum breaks back in 2021 over a voter suppression bill. There was also a quorum break in the early 2000s to protest another mid decade redistricting by Tom DeLay, who ended up in prison later. And in both of those quorum breaks, the one I participated in, and also the one in the early 2000s, you know, the Republicans back home, you know, there was a sign that said, "Democrats and E.T. Call Home." You know I remember my Republican colleagues were collecting money for our bus fare to come home last time. You know it's kind of this typical political theater, political stunts, much more like a frat house than what we're seeing now, which is, I think, frankly, very dangerous, both in terms of constitutionality and legislatively, but also dangerous to our physical safety. The House Republicans have issued warrants for our arrest, which happened last time, and I think we did anticipate that. What we didn't anticipate was Governor Abbott attempting to vacate our seats to remove democratically elected state officials from their positions of public trust. What I didn't participate was the president of the United States asking his FBI director, Kash Patel, to send in federal agents to find us. What I didn't anticipate was Ken Paxton, the most corrupt attorney general in the country, tweeting out to his many followers that we should be hunted down using the word hunt in that tweet. And, of course, didn't anticipate that we would face a bomb threat here at our hotel in Illinois this morning. And so all of that is just beyond the pale. It is dangerous and should be alarming to every American, not just Democrats, but Republicans and Independents, too. Where this road leads, they may start with coming after Texas Democrats, but they come after all of us in the end.

Do you believe that when you eventually return to your home state, your beloved Texas, that you will no longer be a duly recognized member of the legislature?

I guess anything is possible. It seems to be built on a pretty dubious legal basis. I'm not a lawyer, David. I was a former middle school teacher, so I'm a little out of my depth in this area.

Me neither, to the great dismay of my mother, you know.

But I have a lot of lawyer friends, and I serve with a lot lawyers here, a lot talented lawyers in the Democratic caucus. And they say there's no legal basis to do this. But when the courts have become so politicized, when the Texas Supreme Court is full of partisan Republicans, I don't put anything past them. And again, I was duly elected by the people of Texas in the last election. I'm in my fourth term. And I don't think what they realize is that we are doing our jobs. I did not swear an oath on my first day in office to Donald Trump. I didn't swear an oath to Greg Abbott or Ken Paxton. I swore an oath to the Constitution. And I intend on fulfilling that oath, even if it means taking a dramatic step like breaking quorum.

We heard from former congressman Beto O'Rourke that his group has been doing a lot of fundraising to support financially what you guys are doing. Obviously it requires logistics, right? Moving you all out of the state, staying at a hotel. I believe you're being fined $500 a day. Do you believe that that source of money, whether from Beto O'Rourke's organization or elsewhere, is something you want to see more come in on? Are you concerned that others are paying for perhaps the actions you guys chose to take upon yourselves? What are your thoughts about the funding of this?

Yeah, it's really important to separate some of these things. So the fines that you mentioned, those we are paying out of our personal accounts. I knew that I would face those financial penalties, and I'm prepared to pay them, even though I don't have that kind of money. As you may know, David, Texas state legislators earn $600 a month before taxes for our service in the statehouse. And so we all have day jobs that we try to work so that we can pay our bills and make ends meet. But other expenses, like travel and lodging and food, that we can accept donations for. And we are so thankful for all the Texans, all the Americans, frankly, who have just sent in small amounts of money. This is a grassroots funded effort. And that's appropriate because we are fighting for the people, not just Democrats, but Independents and Republicans, too. We're fighting for their ability to elect the candidates of their choice. We are fighting for their ability to check power in this country, particularly the most powerful man in the country, Donald Trump. And they deserve to have a say in what Congress gets elected in 2026. And so that's what we're fighting for. And it's appropriate to have those same people funding this effort.

You've heard President Trump make the argument, I've heard a bunch of Republicans make the argument that they believe that, and this is not just in Texas, sir, but nationally, that how many districts a state gets should more accurately reflect the percentage of the statewide vote that a Republican gets or that Donald Trump got back in 2024. The president is fond of noting what his percentage of the vote was in Massachusetts last November but that there are zero Republican representatives in the state of Massachusetts because of the way that state is gerrymandered. What is your response to that argument?

'I have a few thoughts. One is, I know your listeners are pretty sophisticated when it comes to politics, and I think they know that Donald Trump's numbers don't reflect the Republican Party's numbers. There's usually a big gap, including here in Texas. President Trump won our state in 2024 by double digits, but Ted Cruz won our state by single digits, and there was a pretty big gap. And I'm sure that's true in Massachusetts, as well. That said, I agree with the president that a party's vote share should reflect in their congressional delegation. You know, North Carolina is a 50-50 state, yet, because of mid-decade redistricting, they gerrymandered that state to where there are a smaller number of Democrats compared to the vote share. I've been very clear that gerrymandering is wrong, regardless of what party does it. If it's Republicans in a red state, it's wrong. If it is Democrats in a blue state, it is wrong. And I have no problem saying that. And I've introduced a bill in the Texas legislature to create an independent citizen-led redistricting process. That bill hasn't even gotten a hearing, unfortunately. But that's what we should want in every state. We should want free and fair elections for everyone. That said, David, I do just want to make sure that we are differentiating typical gerrymandering with what's happening here in Texas, because they are different. Typically, we adjust district lines at the beginning of a decade after a census. Texas Republicans did that in 2021. I was there. I spoke against the bill. I voted against the bill. I did not break quorum. My colleagues and I did not break quorum. And that was a gerrymandered map. It diluted minority voting power. It rigged the rules to the Republicans, but at least it was done when it was supposed to be done. And we recognize that gerrymandering, although it is the rot at the core of our broken political system, it exists in red and blue states, not equally, but it does exist in both. What's happening here is they are attempting to redraw those maps they just drew in '21 in the middle of the decade. And they are doing it at the behest of the most powerful man in the country, the president of the United States, because he doesn't wanna face consequences for his actions in the midterms. That is qualitatively different than typical redistricting, gerrymandering shenanigans we see across the country. And I think it's a really dangerous road to walk down if a president of the United States can just call up a state and say, hey, find me 11,000 votes or find me five congressional seats. And it's done like that. That's a problem. You know, thankfully in Georgia, when he called for 11,000 votes, Georgia Republicans said no, sir. But when he call Texas Republicans and asked them for five congressional seats, they said, how about Thursday? And that's why my colleagues and I felt the need to do this because this is a dangerous precedent to set. It is too much power for one man.

In listening to what you're saying, it's unclear to me, are you supportive of what Gavin Newsom is trying to respond with in California? Because it strikes me sort of the golden rule, do unto others as you would want done unto you. And if indeed, Gavin Newsom successfully pursues what he has laid out in California, and the California voters go along with that, isn't this like a do two wrongs make a right kind of scenario?

Yeah, and I don't pretend that this is not a tricky moral and strategic question. It's one I'm wrestling with. Like I said, I think we need fair maps in every state. That is the vision for how we fix this democracy and make it work for regular people. I believe that so strongly. I was actually a victim of gerrymandering myself in that '21 cycle. They tried to eliminate me. They actually eliminated the district that I flipped in '18. And the only way I survived is I was able to move a mile down the road and run in an open seat in a different district.

And a more Democratic district, right?

Correct. Thankfully, it was the district I grew up in, and it's where my family still, you know, my parents live, my church is at, so it was a little bit of a homecoming. But I've seen how that affects an elected official to go from a competitive seat, a swing seat, where you have to appeal to everyone, to now representing a safe seat that the general election is predetermined. You know, I try to resist those incentives that the system is now putting in front of me to only appeal to my farthest flank, because that is the incentive when you have these gerrymandered districts. It's why we see such extremism in our politics. But to answer your specific question, I do know that you have to stand up to a bully. I don't think you can lay down and play dead. You have to look that bully in the eye, and you can't blink because bullies are a lot weaker than you think. And that's exactly what I think we have to do here. It's not something I think is good. It is not something we should be aiming for. But we can't let one side cheat and let that go unanswered. So I guess it's do unto others as the others are doing to you. That unfortunately is the situation we're in. I just know that throughout history, appeasement hasn't worked, and appeasment usually leads to pretty serious consequences for everyone.

Just given the rules of the road here, and I get what you're doing in calling a lot of attention and trying to build public pressure. But it seems that Governor Abbott and the Republican majority, I mean, they have the numbers of what they need to be able to accomplish what they want to do here. And you're not obviously going to be out of state forever. You will eventually return home, I would imagine. So at the end of the day, when all is said and done here, isn't it more likely than not that the Republicans are going to accomplish their goal here?

A few things. One, we don't have to stay out forever. There are deadlines to have a primary and a general election that if the maps are delayed past those deadlines, then those maps won't go into effect, and Donald Trump will have to face the voters, which I would hope is all of our goal. Whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, an elected official or a journalist, we should all want the most powerful elected official in the country to face the voters in the next election. That's important for all of us and the safety of this country, but I'll also point to that 2021 quorum break. I've had some national media folks say, well, that was a failure. And isn't this just gonna be a failure? Which I think is lazy journalism because that quorum break had a tangible impact on the voter suppression bill by shining a national and international spotlight on the voter suppression bill in Texas. It pressured my Republican colleagues to take the worst parts out of that bill. They took a ban on Souls to the Polls, Sunday morning early voting, which African American churches use. They took that out of the bill. A provision to allow Republican politicians to overturn election results they don't like, they took that out of the bill. So the bill became materially less harmful to my constituents because of our quorum break. So civil disobedience may look foolish, it has throughout history looked foolish to people on the outside, but these acts of civil disobedience, these acts of good trouble, they move the conscience of the nation, and ultimately I believe that we will prevail whether it's in the short term or in the long term because of our act of courage.

We're going to take a quick break. We're going to have more with Representative Talarico in a moment, including that huge splash he made on that very popular podcast. We'll be right back. You went on the Joe Rogan podcast, and you made a big national splash. It's not a place we see A, a slew of democratic elected officials, but certainly state legislators necessarily. And I'm just wondering, did you kind of anticipate going in that this would be a moment where you would end up in the national spotlight?

'I did not. Maybe I should have. I was flattered to get the invite, not just because I'm a Democrat, but because I am a state lawmaker. As you know, David, so much of our politics, so much of our media is nationalized these days, and there's not a lot of spotlight or attention on state elected officials, which is really a travesty because this is where most of the policies that affect people's lives are created. I jumped at the opportunity to do it. All the email said was that Joe had seen one of my social media videos and wanted to talk to me. That was it. So I was going in blind for a three-hour interview with someone, as you said, who's not always the most sympathetic to Democrats, but I felt very strongly that my party needs to get outside of its comfort zone. The last election was a wake up call. And I believe politics is about addition and not subtraction. So we've got to meet people where they're at. We've gotta build a much bigger coalition if we hope to win political power in this democracy and make people's lives better. And so I jumped at the opportunity. And, you know, I think he and I actually connected on a bunch of fronts, which I don't know if I was expecting, but I really enjoyed the conversation. And I think he and I both share a healthy suspicion of this broken political system and corruption in both political parties, and I think that was a lot of common ground to build off of.

I think maybe it was the social media video that he had seen or that sparked his interest in how you talk about your faith. And obviously you're a committed Christian. I think you're in seminary now studying. And one of the things that I think is so intriguing is that you've taken your deeply held beliefs in your faith to make the argument about why you think some movements like Christian nationalism can sort of wrap themselves around politics and that you attempt to separate that out, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, you know, this is tricky because I believe so strongly in the separation of church and state that's in our First Amendment. I grew up in a Protestant tradition that cherished that sacred boundary. It's sometimes hard, or easy to forget that American Protestants, Baptists in particular, have been the fiercest defenders throughout American history of the separation of church and state. That first letter from Thomas Jefferson with the phrase was to the Danbury Baptists because he was trying to speak their language, because there's always been a fear of government, you know, preferencing a religion or usurping the role of the church, usurping the role of pastors and Sunday school teachers. And that's a threat, not just to democracy and the state, but it's also a threat to the church. And that's why that separation is so important. That said, I don't believe in a separation of faith and politics. My faith shapes my politics. It shapes my values. That's why I'm in public service. That's I was a middle school teacher on the west side of San Antonio. It's why I ran for state rep. It's why I fight for universal healthcare and affordable childcare and housing for everyone. That is because of my faith. And I don't wanna hide that. I wanna show up as myself when I'm talking to my constituents and to the broader public. And I think faith should shape our politics, whether you're a Christian or not. It did for Dr. King and Jimmy Carter and Dorothy Day and Cesar Chavez and Mr. Rogers. I mean, all these people, their service to the public was shaped by their faith. So it's differentiating those two things. Having an institutional separation is so important because we don't want a theocracy in this country, but then the Democratic Party, I think, needs to remember that that shouldn't be mistaken for a separation of faith and politics, which should be brought together in a healthy relationship.

How does your faith inform this moment of politics that you're engaged in with the quorum break?

It's a great question. My granddad was a Baptist preacher in South Texas. And when I was real little, he told me that we follow a barefoot rabbi who gave us two commandments: love God and love neighbor. He said, Christianity is a simple religion, not an easy one, but a simple one. And that means every single person bears the image of the sacred. Every person you meet, regardless of their religion or their race or their party or their income, everyone is holy. Every person counts. And that is at the heart of this American democracy, this American experiment, that belief that we were all created equal. And so I don't believe that this democracy is just a constitution. I believe it's a covenant. It is a relationship between neighbors, especially when we're all so different, and we have different ideas about things. It's a promise that we make to each other to share this country, despite those disagreements. And I firmly believe that people like Donald Trump, who has shown a disdain for the peaceful transfer of power, people like Greg Abbott, who have shown these authoritarian tendencies, that they are breaking that sacred promise that we make to each other to share this country. And 2000 years ago, when that barefoot rabbi saw the powerful few abusing the many, he didn't just stay in his room and pray. He walked into the seat of power, and he flipped over the tables of injustice. So I guess to answer your question, I would say to those who love democracy, to those who love our neighbors, it's time to start flipping tables.

'You mentioned a middle school teacher on the west side of San Antonio, I think. Was that through the Teach for America program? Is that-.

Yes, sir. Yes, I taught at Rhodes Middle School in San Antonio ISD as a Teach for America corp member.

What was that experience like for you? How much of that experience informs who you are today?

It informed so much of what I'm doing in public service. I loved being a teacher, but I saw firsthand how decisions made in places like the Texas Capitol where I now serve, were hurting students like mine. Again, students made in the image of God, students who had so much potential, so much talent and intelligence. There is so much talented trapped in poverty in this country that I don't think we all realize. And so it kind of, it radicalized me in a way, being their teacher and seeing what was happening to them on a daily basis in this broken system. And that's what motivated me to run. I didn't run as a Democrat really, I ran as a teacher and fixing this broken school finance system in Texas. It's what I do most of my work on at the Capitol. You know, a lot of what I learned about how to communicate, I learned as a teacher, right? As a middle school teacher, I had to boil down really complex things into simple, easily digestible bits of information. I had to communicate in a way that was not too high, but also not condescending or dumbing it down. And so finding that sweet spot, which is what educators do all over this country every single day, it equipped me to be able to come on shows like this or on TikTok and Instagram and be able just talk clearly to my constituents and to the broader public about these very complex systems and issues. And so I just, I feel, I always joke that being in middle school is the best preparation for politics, but it's not really a joke. It really has prepared me for this role.

You mentioned the statewide results and that the Ted Cruz race was a lot more narrow necessarily than the Donald Trump race was. There's been talk of you eyeing a Senate race. Where is your thinking on that? How seriously are you considering that, and what's your timeline for a decision?

I am seriously considering it. I had set a deadline of early next week to make a personal decision about this. And then this quorum break happens. That may be pushed back a little bit because I was hired by 200,000 people in central Texas to fight for them at the state Capitol. I'm basically their lawyer in the state capital, even though I'm not a lawyer, but I am the person who fights for their interests. And I take that job very seriously. It's what I'm doing here, even though not in Texas, I am fighting for them by breaking quorum and stopping this rigged map. So I say that because I intend on doing this job before I start applying to other jobs.

'Do you think this experience will inform your decision-making about a potential run?

I can't imagine how it wouldn't. I'm still kind of processing everything that's been happening, and I have no doubt that it will inform my decision about how to continue my service.

Representative Talarico, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.

Thank you, David.

That's it for this week's edition of the CNN Political Briefing. We'll be back with a new episode next Friday. Thanks so much listening.