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Welcome back to One Thing, I'm David Rind, and are federal agents out of control?

Or just following orders. As one law enforcement source pointed out, that essentially sends the message to these agents that they're untouchable.

Why aggressive immigration enforcement tactics aren't going away even after a killing in broad daylight. Stick around.

And that's basically, ice is here.

When I spoke to Loretta Capehart and Hector Reyes last November, they were happy to tell me about their work as neighborhood ice watchers in Chicago.

Now this one's going to be long. This is like they're out of their cars, they're coming for somebody.

'The married couple are part of a network of volunteers in the city's Westridge neighborhood, who use a combination of old-fashioned whistles and encrypted messaging apps to let everyone know when Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents show up.

And what happens is that school patrols, people, or neighbors say, hey, we think we have eyes here. And then I issue a request. Can someone go and verify to the corner of whatever and whatever. And then a chase.

Starts similar volunteer networks have popped up around the nation most notably in cities targeted by the Trump administration's immigration crackdown Hector and Loretta were well aware of the risks of confronting these federal agents directly when they got into this The couple told me they advised new recruits during training to never touch an agent stay 10 feet away when filming etc but that was before last week.

Shit! Oh my f**king god!

'We are going to go back to that breaking news out of Minneapolis. DHS, I should say, confirming that one woman is dead after an ICE-involved shooting.

'To ICE - get the f*** out of Minneapolis... We do not want you here.

'Just in - CNN has learned that about 1000 additional customs and border protection agents are set to deploy to Minneapolis. That is according to two federal law enforcement sources.

Killing of Renee Nicole Goode by an ICE agent in Minneapolis has sparked nationwide protests, new lawsuits, and major questions about just how far federal law enforcement is allowed to push the envelope. Trump administration officials like Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem continue to insist that Goode was a domestic terrorist who was using her car as a weapon.

How can you assert for a fact within hours, before any investigation, this is what happened?

The facts of the situation are that the vehicle was weaponized and it attacked the law enforcement officer. He defended himself and he defended those individuals around him.

Critics say answers like that make it clear that law enforcement will always get a pass as long as Trump is president. So is it safe for activists like Hector and Loretta to continue doing this work? I checked in with them last Friday, and Hector told me the day after the shooting, he spoke at a protest in Evanston and told the crowd how he saw a lot of himself in NIGGA

It could have been any of us that on a daily basis go out to the streets to try to make our community safe.

Yeah, and I think it not only saw myself, but saw many of our colleagues, the people that are working with us, our fellow ice watchers, particularly the young women. You know, there are many, I work with the school patrols and there are many of the women who work school patrol, who have children in those schools, you know, very much like this woman drop off their kids and then go help with the ice watching and, you know I could just see their faces, you know, and it's, it's horrifying to think that it could have been. You know, and I guess I think about them because of the young children that are left behind when these things happen.

So has anything changed or going to change about the way that you do your activism on the streets in terms of safety precautions or just how close you're getting to what these agents are doing?

I think yes and no. I mean, we're gonna still be out there. We're gonna gonna still do our best to protect our neighbors. And at the same time, we recognize that we are at great risk. And at this same time we're going to continue and recognize this risk and try to be as cautious and as safe as we can. But as we told you last time, we have whistles, they have guns. We're not armed. We are not terrorists. We are people attempting to keep our neighborhood safe, and that's not terrorism.

Do you think this incident in Minneapolis will make people, you know, could there be a chilling effect that less people will be willing to do this kind of work because they see a very real and horrifying example of the risk of, you know being shot?

'We were concerned about that at the beginning, and we just had a report yesterday from one of the people who does some of the city-wide organizing online. And what she reported is there was actually an increase in people willing to go out and be verifiers and watchers right after and continuing to today. Our watches are active. We've not had anybody say, hey, I've got to step back. We've seen any decrease. And the number of people engaged in our signal chats.

And we have a variety of roles for people to play within the network. Not everyone goes to try to confirm that ICE is there and document. There is many other kinds of support that people can provide. And the crowd of about 150 that were in Evanson was all for, no, they're not gonna push us back. If we stop now, it's gonna get worse.

Okay, Josh Campbell is here. He is a CNN senior correspondent covering law enforcement and national security. He is also a former supervisory special agent with the FBI. Josh, we have been seeing video after video come out of Minneapolis in the past week of federal agents using force, either on the subjects of an immigration enforcement action or protestors, civilians who have come by to make their voices heard. And I know every interaction is nuanced and unique, but what I want to know is, is there a broader shift taking place under Trump 2.0, where the baseline for federal agents and how they do their jobs is rooted in antagonism designed to escalate, as opposed to cooperative, designed to turn down the temperature in the name of keeping the public safe?

Well, we've certainly seen an escalation in the tactics used by immigration officers, and that's been documented across the country during the Trump administration's immigration surge. As you mentioned, we're looking at two different buckets here. There's one in Ice, Asia is actually arresting someone who was the subject of their investigation. Again, a lot of times, we've actually seen some heavy handedness there where it appears on video that they're roughing people up, sometimes throwing them to the ground. But then there's this other second category and that's all the activists who have now been coming out to essentially demonstrate against the ICE action itself. There have been heated confrontations there, documented on film, where you see ICE agents who are using what appears to be excessive force. I think it's worth pointing out that it is unlawful to interfere with the actions of an ICE agent as they're out and about doing their job. And so they may have the lawful authority to actually arrest someone who's standing in their way, but so often, at least over the last few months, we've seen them tackling people, shoving them.

Hey, take a picture of this right now!

It was just a video, just a short time ago, showing a man standing in front of an immigration agent's vehicle, essentially standing there filming. One of the agents came and shoved the man, threw him into oncoming traffic.

I'm trying to kill you!

'It's a prison! And so there shouldn't have been a lot of criticism about those kinds of tactics because that seems to run counter to what law enforcement has essentially learned over the course of the last several years since the 2020 social unrest when the word of the day was de-escalation. We seem to be on a different course now.

Well, yeah, that's what I wanted to figure out. Has this changed demonstrably over time? Like, where has this kind of turned in your mind?

'Well, it's important to note that we're talking about federal agents that are different from local cops. Local cops have to engage with the community on a day-to-day basis. It's different from these federal agent surges that we've seen where they're brought in from around the country. They might not even know the community. They may not know specific members of the community who could serve as those kind of intermediaries as they're trying to go about and deal with the public. And so I think that's one of the things that we have seen that difference in tactics. Local police try to do a de-escalation to the extent that they can. It seems with these ICE agents, they're out there essentially trying to get the job done. And we know one thing that we've reported on are the quotas that they're under. The Trump administration actually has given these agents various quotas, the numbers of arrests that they have to do on a day-to-day basis. And I've talked to law enforcement sources over the course of my reporting, federal agents who say that that has put intense stress and strain on these agents. Again, it doesn't excuse any type of excessive use of force. But at the end of the day, they have to hit their numbers. And if that means going out, knocking door to door, going to the Home Depot, and that's all part of this aggression, I think, that we've seen, where they're just focused on, okay, we've got to get these arrests done. Another important aspect of this, I think starts at the top. You know, I was a federal agent before and we knew that, you know, everything that we would do would be checked by the courts, by prosecutors, by internal affairs divisions, and so we knew if we cut corners or if you used excessive force on someone during the course of your job, you might be held accountable.

Everyone's seen it, a woman who's very violent, she's a very radical person, very sad, whatever.

'What we've seen over the course of the Trump administration surge across the country since last year is essentially any time that there is a question about use of force in a high-profile situation, the administration comes out very quickly to exonerate that agent.

We have to respect our law enforcement at a very minimum. That woman was very, very disrespectful to law enforcement. And you heard the same noises. You saw the same crunch that I saw. You can't do that with law enforcement, whether it's police or ICE or Border Patrol or anybody else.

As one law enforcement source pointed out, that essentially sends the message to these agents that they're untouchable. And I also point out here that we've seen over the course of this immigration surge, a lot of confrontation throughout our reporting between the local police and federal agents as well. And that's because, as you know, sources have described for me, you have ICE agents who come in, conduct their operations, oftentimes chaos will ensue, and then they leave and it's the local police who essentially have to clean up the mess.

Yeah, so the feds leave a scene, the locals come in, but the crowd is still outraged and they see law enforcement in front of them and they're bound to kind of direct that anger to them, right?

'That's right, and oftentimes what we've seen is that when these federal agents are out there, they'll wear their tactical gear, and oftentimes you'll see in small letters, federal agent, but in really large letters, police. And I have to tell you, talking with law enforcement sources, that is something that actually angers local law enforcement, because that, in the minds of the public, makes it more difficult for them to distinguish between who is local law-enforcement, who is federal law enforcement. And if people are out they're really hesitant to interact with anyone in law enforcement because they— are afraid of their immigration status or they might get deported simply for reporting a crime, that actually makes us less safe. That's the argument I've heard.

So are there people within federal law enforcement who are concerned about how this is all playing out? Josh has been talking to them, and we'll chat about that next. Stick around. I wanna talk about the tactics a bit, you know, a lot of this aggression that we've seen and a lot people have wondered, is that part of the training? Like, are these officers following the training when it comes to how they deal with these specific instances of interacting with people face to face?

'Well, it's important to note, no two incidents are the same, right? And the law enforcement officer in that situation is trying to assess, is the person standing before me a threat? Have they broken the law? Am I now authorized to actually take them into custody? And once you go through that calculation, the next question is, well, how best to do it? And, you know, as we've mentioned, de-escalation has essentially been the word of the day over the last several years. I will point out, and this is, you now, the view of a lot of police groups as well that say that, look, No use of force is ever pretty. That's the mantra, right? Anytime that a law enforcement officer is going to put hands on someone, that does not look good. The question is, what are the tactics that are there that are involved? So often with these activists that we've seen in recent months, is there out there at times impeding the work of law enforcement, thereby subjecting themselves to arrest, rather than an officer going up to someone and putting them in handcuffs, it's almost like there's at times like an added kind of punishment element to it as well. Or instead of just taking the person, putting handcuffs on them, they'll shove them to the ground. Or at times we've seen them appearing to strike people as they're trying to get them in handcuffs as well.

Yeah, a lot of critics have said it seems like they're trying to make a point by some of this. And when you see all the content from these confrontations that gets pumped out on social media by the official accounts of these agencies, it's hard not to connect those two in some way.

There is certainly a performative element to a lot of this, a public messaging element to this. And, you know, I don't say that as a criticism because I would imagine that the Department of Homeland Security would agree. Otherwise they wouldn't be so forceful out there publicizing all of this that's taking place. You know, with their images, they send their own photographers on these operations. They've sent out all these memes, you now, basically telling people that... If you don't belong here, you need to leave. And so there is a question, is a lot of this to antagonize people? Is it to send kind of this macho message that look, we're not going anywhere? You know, that may be the case. Yeah.

And so I'm wondering, does that come from the top? Like, we've seen President Trump, even just before he popped in here to record this, he told the people of Minnesota on True Social that the day of reckoning and retribution is coming in terms of having this federal presence in the city. So does that trickle down to the rank and file when they hear stuff like that?

This messaging certainly does get down to the rank and file because essentially we've heard the president and his administration tell law enforcement across this country that, you know, in the words of White House advisor, Stephen Miller, you are unleashed.

The handcuffs that you're carrying, they don't on you anymore, they're on the criminals. Now whatever you need to get it done, we're gonna get it down. State, local, federal, on President Trump's promise, we are gonna get it done. Thank you.

Which is quite something to say to law enforcement that you can go out there as a president and a set of times and do whatever the hell they want, I think was one of his quotes. And that's a big concern that I've heard about among law enforcement. By the way, people who I know to be politically conservative in law enforcement who say, whoa, whoa. This is the direction we don't wanna go in this country where, historically we've had law enforcement realize that you need checks and balances. Now they're basically being told you can out there do whatever you want.

So you are hearing from law enforcement folks who have some reservations about how this is all playing out?

And this is not new. In Trump's first administration, he was speaking to a group of law enforcement officials and essentially gave officers the thumbs up, the green light to rough up suspects. I think his words were, you know, when you're putting people in your car, don't be too nice to them. And even that, that was minor by today's standards in the second Trump administration, where he's telling agents that you're unleashed, you can do whatever you want. That does result in criticism within the law enforcement community, because you do have good cops out there who realize that, look, You know, our job may not always be one that is respected by everyone. There's a big political debate, obviously, about the immigration enforcement mission itself, but the laws are on the books. The question is, how does law enforcement go about doing it?

'Yeah, and we're obviously seeing a lot of instances where, like, I keep going back to all these videos we're seeing of agents just smashing in windows with drivers, and it just seems to me that, like I don't know, I'm not a law enforcement guy, but if I was a driver, that would scare the bejesus out of me, and I might want to drive away because I don t want this guy with a crowbar smashing my window in. So I just wonder or how a situation like that could be. De-escalated and why it's not on a large scale, I guess.

Well, I think a lot of this comes down to training. And as we've been reporting on, essentially as the Trump administration has beefed up this effort to try to, you know, enforce immigration law in mass across the country in a more robust way, that's also meant that they're really trying to jam through the number of new agents that are being hired by these immigration agencies, which as we have been reported on, I mean, that has been somewhat haphazard where you have people that historically they were subjected to a robust background investigation. To extensive interviews because, you know, you want to get in the mindset of this person. Before we, the federal government, give this person a badge and a gun, we want to make sure that they're fully vetted. But what we've seen, essentially, rushing people through to try to get them in, you know and out on the street, that has raised a lot of questions about whether these agents are the same caliber that we've historically seen those working the immigration mission. One thing that has fascinated me most in covering this immigration surge is what I'm hearing from inside the law enforcement community itself. And as I mentioned, law enforcement isn't a monolith. People have various different views about what's happening here. Interestingly, there has been conflict between ICE and other federal agencies involved on these immigration task forces, particularly about the tactics that ICE has been using. And I'll just give you an example. One FBI source told me that, they were so concerned with the tactics that ICE was using that they brought that up to their own management saying, look, we're not going to be a part of this. We're not gonna engage in pure racial profiling just to try to hit numbers and quotas. There's also been a big conflict about the use of body worn cameras where some agencies like the FBI, they're wearing cameras out there. A lot of these ICE agents are not. One source told me that in one instance, that ICE essentially refused to bring the FBI along for an operation because they didn't want them to record the tactics that they were about to use. And my sources view the questionable tactics that they've often used in trying to encounter people, enter residences, go on private property and the like. And so that has created a lot of tension within the law enforcement community. And that's it.

I mean, that's interesting because we've, you know, talked about the spats between the feds and the locals, especially over this investigation into the Renee Good shooting. But you're saying there's actually some disagreement within the federal law enforcement apparatus as to how this is being carried out from agency to agency.

Absolutely, and it's gotten quite heated and it escalated throughout the highest ranks of different agencies to try to mitigate how we're gonna handle this. So also we're pointing out that law enforcement is a finite resource, it's a zero sum. If you were dedicating agents to one thing, you're not doing something else, specifically with other federal agencies that have been assigned to assist. They know that if we're doing this immigration mission, that may be the prerogative of the administration and we work for them, but people have to understand all of these other cases and all of this other threats that may not be addressed because of the sheer number of people that are being pulled in order to try to solely work immigration.

We should say CNN reached out to the Department of Homeland Security about what Josh reported there. They said in a statement that federal agents are facing smearing by claims the agency is using harsher approaches and said they quote, put their lives on the line every day to enforce the law. They also have previously denied any use of racial profiling. Well, Josh, thanks for the perspective. I really appreciate it. Always a pleasure. On Tuesday, at least six federal prosecutors in the U.S. Attorney's Office for Minnesota resigned from their positions. According to a person briefed on the matter, the Trump administration had pressured them to focus the probe of the ICE officer shooting of Renee Good on the actions of Good and others around her. They say more resignations could follow in light of the unusual demands. That's it for us today. We're back on Sunday. We'll talk to you later.