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And now I want Congress to pass a bill permanently banning and criminalizing sex changes on children and forever ending the lie that any child is trapped in the wrong body. This is a big lie.

'When LGBTQ advocates hear President Donald Trump say stuff like that, or read about his policies like the ban on transgender service members, some say it sounds an awful lot like the U.S. Government telling them their lives don't matter, that they're better off staying in the closet. Even though the administration insists the policies are about military readiness and pushing towards a colorblind, merit-based society. Some recent Supreme Court decisions have only added to the feeling that decades of progress are being ripped away before their eyes.

This is one of the biggest cases of the term and here the court in a 6 to 3 opinion has upheld a Tennessee state law that bans gender affirming care for minors.

And after the Dobbs ruling, which overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022, some believe no Supreme Court ruling is safe, including the landmark 2015 ruling which legalized gay marriage. So today, as Pride Month comes to a close, I'm gonna talk to the lead plaintiff in that case about how he sees this moment and what advice he would give to the transgender community. From CNN, this is One Thing. I'm David Rind.

'Nearly a dozen years ago, Jim Obergefell and his longtime partner, John Arthur, had a problem. John was very sick. He was nearing the end of a years-long battle with ALS. So the two wanted to get married while John was still alive. Only one problem. Same-sex marriage wasn't legal where they lived in Ohio. Remember, this was 2013. So Jim booked a private medical jet and flew them to Maryland, where it was legal, and tied the knot. John died shortly after. But then, after Jim returned to Ohio, he was furious to find out the state wouldn't recognize their marriage on Arthur's death certificate. So Jim filed the lawsuit. Eventually, his suit got lumped in with a bunch of others into a case that made it all the way to the Supreme Court. But his name and his fight against the director of Ohio's Department of Health would soon make headlines as Obergefell v. Hodges. The rest, as they say, is history.

We now know, Jake, what the United States Supreme Court has decided on this very historic day.

'That's right, Wolff. It appears as though in a landmark decision, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that states cannot ban same-sex marriages.

Absolutely overjoyed completely overjoyed...

The decision fundamentally reshaped American life, and Jim became an instant folk hero.

I love you, this is for you John, thank you.

'Ten years later, same-sex marriage is still incredibly popular. Just last month, a Gallup poll found 68% of Americans believe same- sex unions should be legal. But after Roe v. Wade was overturned, there have been rumblings that Obergefell v. Hodges could be next. So, a decade later, I wanted to check in with Jim and see what he makes of this moment. We spoke on Tuesday. So Jim, I want to go back to the immediate aftermath of the Supreme Court decision in your case, June 26, 2015.

Well, if I'm here with the lead plaintiff in this case, Jim Obergefell, I imagine.

You were actually live on CNN outside the court with a huge group of supporters around you when you got a phone call from President Obama himself. What do you remember about that moment?

Just the feeling of disbelief that I'm getting a call from the president of the United States.

Hello? Hi, is this Jim?

Yes, it is. Mr. President.

You know, I was already dealing with disbelief that I was part of a Supreme Court decision, but then to be called by the president

Thank you, congratulations.

Thank you so much, sir, I think it was your wishes.

So that's one thing I remember, but also just the challenge of being on speakerphone in the midst of this huge celebratory crowd.

I appreciate everything you've done for the LGBT community and it's really an honor to have become part of that fight.

Well, see ya, I'm really proud of you.

I honestly, afterwards I couldn't remember a single thing that I said. I had no idea if I formed complete sentences.

We're even totally sure of what he said.

It's funny, after I hung up and I had a lot of interviews later that day, almost every interviewer said, so Jim, we saw you got a call from the president. What did he say? What did you say? And my honest response was always, I haven't a clue. I think the president said something along the lines of, thank you, Jim, you and your husband helped make the world a better place today. And I was able to later confirm that, yes, he did actually say that. But in the moment, that was a vague recollection.

I wasn't positive he had said that, but he did. Well, so when you had a moment to kind of decompress and think about that moment and kind of what it meant, how did it feel to know that the president of the United States had your back, and by extension, the back of the LGBTQ community?

That was incredibly important to know that the most powerful person in our nation, the leader of our nation was on our side and believed this was the right thing to happen and was in support of marriage equality and was thrilled that the Supreme Court ruled it the way they did. It was incredibly and powerful.

So flash forward to today, and you have a president who has been really openly hostile to LGBTQ issues, issues of diversity. He came out on his first day to say the U.S. Government will only recognize two genders, male and female. Just the other day, HHS said it will end specialized support for LGBTQ youth on the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline next month. I guess I'm wondering if you thought it all about. The power of activism and the ability to make it stick. You know, just looking back at the fact that 10 years have gone by and we're at this place right now.

'You know, I think we learned something, activists across topics, across the country, learned something with the Dobbs decision. We can't just sit back and think, oh, well, we have this right. This right will always be around. So I think that was a wake-up call and it's something that we need to keep foremost in our minds and part of our strategy going forward. When we take a step forward, when we have a win or a success, How do we ensure that we keep that and that we don't lose that we can't be complacent?

Well, how do you do that? Like what kind of actions have you thought about?

You know, that's a really difficult thing. Part of it is we need to continue sharing our stories. Stories are so powerful. It's how we change hearts and minds. And I look at the trans community, you know, that community started making gains because of people who were prominent, trans people who are open and known across the country. And they help break down those preconceived notions. But even with that, it also takes a devotion, a dedication to, and a commitment to vote in every single election. Because if we don't vote in ever single election for candidates who share our values and who actually see us and consider us as human beings worthy of equal justice under law, we're giving others the right to make decisions about our worth. So I think that's one of the most important and powerful tools we have is to make sure that we vote. We can't just say, oh, well, I can't be bothered or... Well, I don't agree 100% with that candidate, or there's one thing that candidate does or says that I don't like, so I'm not going to vote. That harms all of us, and that's exactly what we're seeing. We see the Supreme Court that we have today because people in 2016 chose not to vote, or they thought, well, this will be funny, I'm gonna vote for that candidate because I just feel like blowing things up.

How are things going with that approach? You ran for a house seat in Ohio in 2022, didn't succeed. But would you recommend that as a course of action for someone who kind of sees the state of all of this and thinks, hey, maybe I can do it better.

I think anyone who has that thought, should I run for office? Should I try to make my city, my state, my country better than it is? If you're thinking about that, absolutely. I think that anyone who had that idea and considers it, I think they should do it. And even though I didn't win, I'm glad I did that because I was a visible person to people in my district who believe in equality, who believe including everyone. Care more about the community than they do themselves.

I guess like how much of a different climate is this now where, for example, trans rights is such a hot button issue. You saw Trump was able to really weaponize it in that infamous campaign ad. Like I imagine it would just be hard for somebody who has those deeply held beliefs to kind of put that out there and really gather a critical mass.

It is a challenge, it's scary. It's overwhelming to think about putting yourself out into this climate, this polarized political climate where there's a very vocal minority in power who has no problem attacking others, lying, creating fiction out of thin air. So, it is a very scary thing to consider, and not everyone who has that thought, should I run for office? Maybe I will run for Office. Not everyone is willing to put themselves through that. And I understand it. But anyone who thinks about it and thinks they might be willing to deal with it, I hope they do because that's the only way we can actually create change, positive momentum, forward momentum that sticks. If we don't vote, if we don't have people running for office who share our values, then we're gonna have this continual seesaw back and forth.

'We have seen a small effort in some state houses across the country to overturn your decision fueled in part by this far-right group called Mass Resistance, which describes itself as a pro-family activist organization, but the Southern Poverty Law Center calls it an anti-LGBTQ hate group. None of these resolutions have actually passed, but I'm just wondering how serious you take this.

Oh, I take it very seriously. I look at Clarence Thomas's concurring opinion on Dobbs as the first major seeding of the idea of let's overturn Obergefell.

The conservatives themselves seem to be a bit at odds in their decision. While Justice Alito said that this opinion was confined to the issue of abortion, in a concurring opinion, the conservative justice, Clarence Thomas, actually urged the court to reconsider its rulings.

He made it clear in that concurrence on Dobbs that he thinks Obergefell, as well as Lawrence and Griswold should be reconsidered.

Those are cases on contraception and sodomy.

And here's the quote from him, in future cases, we should reconsider all of this court's substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell.

So he's given people and giving opponents of those decisions the nod, hey, do what you can, try to get a case up to the Supreme Court and I'll be on your side. So I take all of these things seriously. We'd be foolish not to.

'So after the Supreme Court decision last week, which upheld a ban on gender-affirming care for transgender youth in Tennessee, a lot of advocates said this will now force kids and their parents to seek the proper care in states where it's allowed. And these can be long, expensive journeys, roughly half of the nation states have bans similar to Tennessee's. And you know, this predicament reminds me of what you had to do to marry your partner John. You had to fly from Ohio all the way to Maryland, where it was legal at the time. And of course, John was very sick. So I guess I'm wondering, do you have any advice for a trans kid or their parents for how to navigate a patchwork of laws and this idea of traveling somewhere else to get the care?

'I wish I had advice that I thought would help other than marriage was important to John and me. We had wanted that since the mid 90s. And when we had the opportunity, at least under the winter decision to have the federal government acknowledge us, we made it happen. Now we had some privilege. We could afford to charter a medical jet to fly to Maryland, but we also had generous family and friends who covered that cost for us. But we were privileged enough to do that. And for the trans community, the fact that their life-saving gender-affirming care is now being banned, and that's okay, according to our Supreme Court, in the state they call home is devastating to those people, to their community, to their parents, to the people who love them. The only advice I can give is... Surround yourself with people who love you, who care for you, who treat you as the human being you are. And... I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can make a change, that you CAN get to another state to get the care that you need and you deserve. And it breaks my heart that there will be far too many trans kids who aren't able to do that. Their families can't afford to move, they can't able afford to travel. And I don't really have any advice that I think is all that useful other than you deserve it. And I hope you are able to make this happen and I hope that you are to get to a state that sees you as a human being. And gives you and your parents the right to make medical decisions about your life, about your body. And I wish I had more, but I don't.

Jim, did you ever feel burdened at all by your name that is now the shorthand for this landmark case that has become a rallying cry for so many in the LGBTQ community? And while at the same time has become a target in the sights of opponents of gay marriage and trans rights, things like that.

I'll be honest, it makes me angry when I hear my name come out of the mouths of people who are using it as an attack and are attacking marriage equality or attacking the queer community. That makes me anger. I don't like hearing it come out their mouths or to see it in writing from that perspective. But I also have had the ability that, okay, yeah, that's my name. And yes, that was John's and my story. I was the named plaintiff, but it isn't specifically me. It is a right that they're fighting. Beyond that, when the case was going on and when the the case decided, yeah, my life changed dramatically. I lost anonymity. I am continually still stopped by people who want to hug me, thank me, share stories. And that has never once been an imposition. It has never felt burdensome because I get to talk to these people who are sharing personal things about themselves. People have come out to me. I have never once felt burdened by being part of this case. And being part of marriage equality, becoming the law of the land.

You've called yourself an accidental activist, so you never wish that the case was named something else, you know, that it would still have the outcome that you got, but that it was called, you now, another name.

Honestly, they're one of the plaintiffs. His last name was love. And I always thought that would have been perfect had that been the named case in this decision, because you'd go loving love. And it just, there was synchronicity to that that I loved, but, you know, I felt guilty that when the court accepted this consolidated case and they named it Obergefell v Hodges, I always felt guilty because I was one of more than 30 plaintiffs And there were lots of other stories in that group of plaintiffs that were equally as compelling as John's in mine. And I always felt guilty about that. But some of the other plaintiffs said, Jim, don't feel guilty because I, I had the ability to take a step back from my real estate profession at the time and dedicate myself to the case. And as they told me, Jim we don't have that luxury. We have jobs that we can't leave. We have families that we're taking care of. So They made me feel less guilty about that.

You said you lost your anonymity. Do you fear it all for your safety in this moment where elected officials and just high profile people are being targeted?

You know, I don't know that I would say I fear for my safety. I guess I'm just not a really fearful person, but I do think about it. I do make choices now, or consider what could possibly happen. I look for exits when I go into something. I also choose frequently not to be in big groups. So I don't like I say, I don't think I would use the word fear, but I certainly do think about it because all you have to do is watch the news and understand. That there are a lot of unhinged people out there who are willing to resort to violence to all of these terrible things against people they just simply don't like.

Well, Jim Obergefell, thanks so much for talking to me. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me I appreciate it.

'On Friday, the last day of its term, the Supreme Court sided with a group of parents who had a religious objection to their kids engaging with LGBTQ books in the classroom. In a 6-3 ruling, the conservative majority said a suburban school district in Washington, DC burdened the parents' First Amendment rights by refusing to allow them to pull their children from the classroom when the books are used. In her dissent, liberal justice Sonia Sotomayor warned the ruling will apply to countless other topics that conflict with religious beliefs, such as the role of women in the workplace, and threatens the very essence of public education.

One Thing is a CNN Podcasts production. This episode was hosted and produced by me, David Rind. Our showrunner is Felicia Patinkin. Matt Dempsey is our production manager. Dan Dzula is our technical director. And Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Podcasts. We get support from Alex Manasseri, Mark Duffy, Robert Mathers, John Deonora, Leni Steinhart, Jamus Andrest, Nicole Pesaru and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Wendy Brundidge. If you're enjoying the show, make sure you leave us a rating and a review wherever you listen. It helps other people discover the show. We really appreciate it. We'll be back on Wednesday. I'll talk to you then.