Scribble

David Rind

00:00:00

What was your reaction when you first heard about that?

Jeremy Daigle

00:00:03

Oh my god, how could someone be so stupid?

David Rind

00:00:10

When we learned last month that a group of Trump administration officials were using the Signal app to discuss sensitive military attack plans and that Atlantic editor Jeffrey Goldberg had been added to the chat, many veterans shared Jeremy Daigle's reaction.

Jeremy Daigle

00:00:25

'One of the first things once you get any sort of higher clearance, one of the very first thing that happens is you get told, you can talk about these things using these channels. If you talk about it outside of these channels, that is a no-no.

David Rind

00:00:40

'Daigle served six years in the Air Force as an avionics technician and had top-secret clearance. He says from the earliest days of basic training, the importance of safeguarding information was drilled into him, and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, a veteran himself, should have known better. So, on Sunday night, when we learned of a second group chat—

Kate Bouldan

00:01:00

this one, including his wife and brother. Sources telling CNN that this second group chat, Hegseth sent highly sensitive information about strikes in Yemen.

Jeremy Daigle

00:01:10

Couldn't believe it. It was treating a military operation with all the reverence you would treat a backyard fireworks show. It's just like, hey, come come look at this cool bombing that we're going to be doing, you know, show my brother and my wife about it. It'll be cool.

David Rind

00:01:25

What kind of message do you think this sends to service members all around the world that this has happened multiple times?

Jeremy Daigle

00:01:33

Oh, it is a slap in the face. Commanders and generals have lost commands over less. And it's for that reason, it hurts, you know, discipline, right? It demonstrates that if the leader isn't disciplined, how can they expect any of their subordinates to have discipline? And that's what we just saw.

David Rind

00:01:56

My guest today is CNN national security reporter, Haley Britzky. We're gonna talk about why it appears Hexeth could be losing his grip on top leadership inside the Pentagon and how all this drama could impact the men and women of America's military. From CNN, this is one thing. I'm David Rind.

David Rind

00:02:14

Hey Haley, thanks for being here. Just to timestamp this conversation for our listeners because things are moving faster around here. It's about 10 a.m. On Tuesday morning. And Pete Hegseth had another Signal Group chat. Like what the heck has gone on here?

Haley Britzky

00:02:33

'Yeah, so David, we reported over the weekend that the secretary was in a second signal group chat. We know, obviously, a first that was reported by the Atlantic because the Atlantic Editor-in-Chief was added into that group chat, and the second one, it was set up during his confirmation process for him to kind of strategize and speak with people during his hearings and meetings and things like that, and that he's continued using it. And so what we reported was You know, there's more than a dozen people in this chat to include his wife, his brother, his personal lawyer. And that in that chat, he was sharing some of this information about military strikes against the Houthis similar to what he was doing in the first one.

David Rind

00:03:15

Wait, yeah, so that obviously raises the same questions about sharing sensitive info like that on a platform like Signal, but why was his wife in the chat? Does she work for the Department of Defense? Like what's going on there?

Haley Britzky

00:03:27

So Jennifer Hegseth does not actually work for DOD. His brother and his lawyer both have roles within the department. So that kind of makes a little bit more sense, I guess, but his wife does not. We've seen her very visibly with her husband throughout his confirmation process. Also since then, as she's traveled with him on trips abroad, not necessarily unusual. Other spouses of other secretaries have done the same. But we've also seen her enter meetings with other foreign leaders like the UK's defense minister, John Healey. So while she doesn't have an official job in the Pentagon, she is certainly, you know, very active in supporting her husband and kind of being with him during some of these moments. To our knowledge, she does not have a security clearance. We've asked the Pentagon that they have declined to say anything because they don't typically talk about anyone's security clearance. But it is a question of, you know, what information is she seeing? And is she pretty, too? And really, though, I mean, the signal chat, as much of an issue as that has become, it's kind of just the tip of the iceberg in a really chaotic period for Hegstep that's unfolding right now.

David Rind

00:04:34

Yeah, I've heard about all this. Is that related to this signal stuff?

Haley Britzky

00:04:37

It is related in the way, somewhat, so it's complicated.

Kate Bouldan

00:04:45

Breaking overnight, a month of chaos. That is how one long time advisor to Pete Hegseth is now describing the Pentagon under Hegsath's leadership.

Haley Britzky

00:04:54

So the Secretary has, just last week, three officials who were brought in with the administration. This was a senior advisor to the Secretary and his Deputy Chief of Staff, as well as the Chief of staff to the Deputy Secretary of Defense. All three of those officials were placed on administrative leave last week and then fired for what was said, you know, amid an investigation of unauthorized disclosures or essentially leaking information.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:05:21

We take the classification of information very important. It's very significant to us that we safeguard it. And so when we had leaks, which we have had here, we did a serious leak investigation. And through that leak investigation, unfortunately, we found some folks that we believe were not holding to the protocols that we hold dear here at the Defense Department.

Haley Britzky

00:05:43

And the secretary maintains that these individuals leaked information to the media. He said just this morning in an interview on Fox that he believes those individuals again leaked information about the Signal chats.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:05:56

Those folks who were leaking, who have been pushed out of the building, are now attempting to leak and sabotage the president's agenda and what we're doing. And that's unfortunate.

Haley Britzky

00:06:05

These individuals have consistently denied that they have leaked any information that they have done in wrongdoing and the secretary maintained this morning that they had, but he also left the door open a little bit saying that if they're exonerated in this investigation, great, but they could be referred to the Department of Justice for prosecution.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:06:24

Leakers know who they are and we know over time the truth will be told and we stand firm behind that.

David Rind

00:06:33

But wait, weren't these Hegseth's guys that he brought in?

Haley Britzky

00:06:37

They were. These are not, you know, establishment bureaucrats in the way that, you know, Republicans often talk about the deep state and these sort of people who've worked in the department for years and years and are working to undermine the president or the secretary. These are people that Hegseth knew, which he acknowledged in his Fox interview this morning, saying, you, know, this investigation took us to some unfortunate places and to people that I've known for a long time.

Tucker Carlson

00:07:01

You just left the Pentagon under circumstances, I hope we can talk about. What were you doing when you left?

Dan Caldwell

00:07:08

So I was a senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense.

Haley Britzky

00:07:12

So on Monday night, one of these individuals' name is Dan Caldwell. He was the senior advisor for Secretary Hegseth, has worked together in the past, are friendly. He was brought in by the secretary to sort of help him lead his front office and advise him.

Tucker Carlson

00:07:30

I want to be totally direct with you. Did you leak classified information against the wishes of your superiors to media outlets?

Dan Caldwell

00:07:36

Absolutely not

Haley Britzky

00:07:38

And Caldwell told Tucker Carlson he did not leak any classified information, that he did not photograph information and share it with the media.

Dan Caldwell

00:07:47

I have not spoken to an NBC reporter while at the Pentagon.

Tucker Carlson

00:07:52

Do you know what you've been accused of?

Dan Caldwell

00:07:55

No, I don't. Sitting here right now, myself and Darren Selnick and Colin Carroll, the other two individuals that were escorted out of the Pentagon, initially placed on leave and then fired on Friday, we have not been told as of this recording. One, is there what we were being investigated for? Two, is their still an investigation? And three, was there even a real investigation? Because there's a lot of evidence. That there is not a real investigation.

Haley Britzky

00:08:25

Caldwell and the two other officials, Darren Selnick and Colin Carroll, put out a joint statement saying essentially that over the weekend, that they denied sharing information and that they hadn't even really been told what they were being investigated for or if there was an ongoing investigation.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:08:46

I don't have time for leakers. I don' have time for the hoax press that peddles old stories from disgruntled employees.

Haley Britzky

00:08:53

The secretary has continued to kind of slam them in public statements. He said at the White House on Monday that they were leakers with axes to grind. He described them as disgruntled former employees.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:09:04

We should be talking about the decimation of the Houthis, how we're pushing back the Chinese, how we have a new defense area at the southern border. Instead, disgruntled former employees are peddling things to try to save their ass. And ultimately, that's not gonna work.

Haley Britzky

00:09:19

But again, as you've pointed out, I mean, these are people that he brought in with him into his office. And so it's kind of fascinating the way that this is playing out so publicly.

David Rind

00:09:35

Yeah, this is so odd. I mean, he's only been there a few months and he's already trashing these guys that he brought in. So is this just like an old fashioned power struggle or is there something deeper going on here?

Haley Britzky

00:09:46

That's the big question that I think everyone is trying to figure out is sort of where is this coming from? Is this more of just, you know, a personality dynamic? Is this an issue of something broader that hasn't been uncovered yet? There's even been question about what's going on with the secretary's chief of staff, Joe Casper. He was asked about Casper during his interview with Fox and Friends. He's confirmed that he was moving into a new role, said that they really appreciated his work at the department. So there's just a lot of cycling around, a lot movement happening in the secretary's front office right now, which the secretary maintains is just a distraction by the media to undermine the president's agenda. But there are serious concerns bubbling up, particularly on the Hill, about the way that this secretary is functioning and the way his office is working.

David Rind

00:10:36

Yeah, this was the knock on him during the confirmation process, right? Like even if you put aside the very serious allegations of drinking on the job and sexual assault, which he has strenuously denied throughout, critics said this guy has never been in charge of an organization as large and as complex as the Pentagon.

Haley Britzky

00:10:53

That's right. And that's one of the main concerns that was raised just yesterday by Congressman Don Bacon. He was the first Republican who spoke out, he's on the House Armed Services Committee, saying that he had concerns before about Hegseth's experience level, and he still has them now, said that the second signal chat is unacceptable, and that he wouldn't stand for it if he was in a leadership position. So those concerns have certainly existed from really the moment Hegsath was named. As the defense secretary, and they are certainly continuing into his tenure.

David Rind

00:11:26

Well, how does President Trump feel about all this then? Because this was a controversial pick from the start and Trump stuck with him even through all that controversy that I mentioned earlier.

Haley Britzky

00:11:36

He has, yeah, and the president is continuing to stand by him.

President Donald Trump

00:11:39

Are you bringing up Signal again? I thought they gave that up two weeks ago.

Haley Britzky

00:11:43

The White House was expressing confidence in him. The president himself expressing confidence saying that Hexeth is doing a great job.

President Donald Trump

00:11:49

'That we have a recruitment that's at an all-time high. The spirit and the armed forces is fantastic. Great confidence.

Haley Britzky

00:11:57

The White House press secretary saying that the entire Pentagon is working against Hegseth, which I mean, obviously a bit of hyperbole there, but it is a kind of amazing statement to be making that the Pentagon is large as it is and full of, you know, career military officers and service members to say that they are, this is just an issue of people not liking leadership when Clearly there is something going on in the secretary's office and with the people that he has brought in to surround him and give him advice.

David Rind

00:12:29

Well, yeah, I mean, this is a huge organization that does a lot of important work. So how has all this upheaval impacted the actual work of the military at home and around the world?

Haley Britzky

00:12:40

'So, you know, the amazing thing about the military, at least in my years of covering the military certainly out in the force and around the world, those units continue on. The political happenings occurring back home in DC, you know rarely directly impact so quickly what troops are doing on the front lines or in training with allies and partners. But certainly it's a question that's being asked of what kind of a distraction is this posing for the department and for its ability to do the work that it needs to do. This is an extremely complicated security environment right now. We have Ukraine-Russia negotiations that are ongoing, campaign against the Iran-backed Houthis in Yemen. The department is constantly raising concern about China's movements in the Pacific. So it just leaves you to wonder, you know, how much of a distraction this is from the administration's priorities and how much patience the president and his national security team will be able to have with this.

David Rind

00:13:38

'Yeah, but what are those priorities? Because through the first couple of months of the administration, a lot of the headlines that have really stuck out to me anyways was this mission to kind of root out so-called DEI initiatives from the Pentagon, removing articles about history from Pentagon websites that had to be replaced when there was outrage. So is there any kind of mixed messaging going on that service members have to deal with at this point?

Haley Britzky

00:14:07

I think there is a little bit in that, you know, we have the priorities, the foreign policy priorities, or the broader national security priorities, which are some of, you know, what I just listed off with Ukraine, with the Houthis in Yemen, with the Pacific. But meanwhile, as you just said, I mean, the Secretary has largely focused his messaging and his efforts on things like restoring lethality, restoring war fighting to the department. And largely that seems to include, as we're saying, You know getting rid of some of these diversity issues and tackling things like physical fitness testing. It's something else that he's been focusing on.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:14:44

I know exactly why I'm here, to bring war fighting and the war fighting ethos back to the Pentagon, to rip out the insidious ideologies and not compromise and not back down.

Haley Britzky

00:14:55

The Secretary seems to be focusing on a lot of these personnel issues and certainly that's what the messaging from his office has focused on.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth

00:15:03

To get rid of trans lunacy in the military. We haven't backed down.

Haley Britzky

00:15:08

And meanwhile, there are these larger security concerns happening elsewhere in the world. Certainly he's continued holding meetings with officials on those things, engaging with those, as we saw in the signal chats. You know, the information that was being discussed there was about strikes against the Houthis in Yemen. So certainly those things are ongoing and he's engaged with those. But largely the messaging we've seen from his office has focused on some of these personnel issues instead.

David Rind

00:15:34

Yeah, it's not like there aren't urgent military matters being discussed. It's just a question of where they're being discussed and with whom that is raising a lot of these red flags. Well, Haley, thanks so much for the perspective. Appreciate it.

Haley Britzky

00:15:49

Thanks for having me.

David Rind

00:15:58

One Thing is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by me, David Rind. Our senior producers are Felicia Patinkin, Haley Thomas, and Faiz Jamil. Matt Dempsey is our production manager. Dane Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN audio. We get support from Alex Manasseri, Mark Duffy, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namarow. Special thanks to Wendy Brundidge. We'll be back on Sunday. If you like the show, leave us a rating and a review wherever you listen, maybe tell a friend about us, I'll talk to you later.

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