Welcome to Chasing Life. You know, something's occurred to me recently. We've spent a lot of time talking about kids and their screen time. I have three girls. It is a big topic of conversation in my house. But lately, I've been noticing something a little different in my own life. My parents, older relatives, and even some of my own friends, they are spending a lot time on their phones. They're watching videos, they're scrolling, they're going down these rabbit holes. We've been really focused on reducing screen time for kids, but maybe are we forgetting that it's really not good for any of us, including older adults, including my own parents. Why is this happening? What does it mean for their lives? What does that mean for the brains as they age? When does it go from a legitimate way to stay connected, which I think we all agree can be a good thing. When does that go from that to something we should actually be concerned about? And if this is what we're seeing now, What does it mean for younger generations who've basically grown up with screens? They've never known a life without screens. These are big questions. They're important questions. So today I'm gonna be talking with board certified psychiatrist, Dr. Sue Varma. She's gonna help us understand what is driving this, what to look for if you're starting to worry about someone else's screen usage in your own life. And I think most importantly, what you can actually do about it [and] how to have that really important conversation. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, and this is Chasing Life. I'm older than you are, but I think we both grew up at a time when there weren't phones, obviously. There certainly wasn't social media. So the context for this is very different, I think, for people of our generation.

Yes.

And I think when you introduce a new technology, sometimes it can be very, very transformative and transformative in good ways, but you don't always anticipate some of the potential perils of this. So you try and control as as much as you can.

Part of it is because the television is also on versus in younger Gen Z and younger millennials, they're just using the phones instead of television time. But their screen time on their phones is still high. It's like seven or eight hours a day.

I feel like if I were to tell my parents, I feel like if I were to share those sorts of numbers with them, first they wouldn't believe it, they would deny it, but they certainly would be shocked or surprised. What do you see in your own patients or your own group of friends?

'You know, look, I think part of it has to do with, who were you before the screen use? Because my dad, for example, he will be turning 90 this year. He's a retired psychiatrist. My mom passed many years ago. And after she passed, he was able to finally reintegrate. And he has all these friends from medical school that are all over the world. And he keeps it in connection with them on WhatsApp, which is great. We find that about 60% of the time the phone usage is positive, when it has do with photo sharing, video sharing. And keeping in contact with people. The problems where I see is that the excessive phone use, my dad is constantly tuned into the weather channel and he is always alerting me. And this is something that you see, they call it the informed guardian where the person feels like I wanna be useful, I wanna to be relevant, I need to stay on top of the news, right? So this is where it can get excessive where I love the fact that he's clued in and plugged in with what's happening in the world. But, then I'm also concerned where do you really need to know everything happening everywhere where you really don't have any control over it or even the weather, you know, oh my god you know it's going to be 90 degrees or you know you could be at risk for a heat stroke so I appreciate it but I understand it as a need for agency in their own lives when when we see that over half of adults over 65 are living with multiple chronic diseases many of them are on four or five different medications. They're living alone. Sometimes the screen is the only voice they hear all day. So it's understandable to me, but I also am concerned because what this does is it crowds out opportunity for real life connection, for exercise, for time in nature. And it has very clear physical symptoms, physical symptoms of withdrawal. A lot of times if you tell the elder adults, like I see this with my in-laws, for example, they're on their screens and devices all day long. And to the point where if you ask them, come hang out, they'll say, no, no I'm good. I've got a show that I have to watch. And I'm like, we want to take you out to dinner, but you've got a show, that you're like married to almost.

But what is the fundamental problem then? Is it what those screens are doing to them? Is it, what they're not doing instead? And I will say, like just listening to your father's story, your father is watching the weather channel all the time. Hey, you know, Sue, it's gonna be 90 degrees where you are, make sure you pack your water, whatever it might be, right? It's some of the same character traits in a world of new technology, it sounds like.

Yes. And it's like, I would say it's chicken and the egg. Like it's a combination of sometimes there is a paucity of strong connections in a person's life. It's the enticement, like the dopamine reward loop. A lot of older adults are on Facebook. And yes, we could say it a way that they share and keep in touch with family. And that might be the only connection like to their grandkids, for example, right? Like as younger people and younger generations have moved to better jobs, they're less connected. A lot of times they're estranged from family members. That's a big problem that we have. A lot these older folks are like, I don't even talk to my kids anymore. And so the only way for me to stay connected is through Facebook. But then the problem is they become addicted to the likes and may go down dark rabbit holes of communities.

I think that is, to me, a fundamental, sort of a foundational concern, is that, you know, my parents are, I think they're vulnerable in this regard. I think people prey on them using social media. They try and sell them products, you now, all that sort of stuff.

This older population is so vulnerable to scams. They're not aware that there's an algorithm that has its own agenda that wants to make money. And I have patients who will tell me that one patient in particular was like, his mother who is not doing well financially, she's retired. She almost lost a million dollars to this one scam that kept repeating itself. It was like one of those Saudi Prince leave money or somebody in Nigeria leave money in a locker. Or a lot of people get hooked into these romantic schemes where like they might be the older and they're lonely and maybe they're widowed or divorced or single and they're getting catfished or pictures being sent to them.

I will tell you, there was a few times that it really struck me, and it would be when I'd be in the middle of what I would consider a deep conversation with my mom, for example, and her phone would ring. And it was like, oh my God, and she didn't even know who it was, but clearly she was going to interrupt this time, which we don't get a lot of with me, to answer a call from someone she didn't even know what it was. And it just sort of struck me at that point. But to be charitable at that time, I realized that she grew up in a world where being able to talk on the phone was actually quite a luxury. But the second time I noticed it was we have a pretty strict policy in our house to not have phones at the dinner table. I have three girls, you know, who are in their late teens, early twenties now, and that's just the way it is, and they're good with it. But you know who wasn't good about it? My parents. So we're sitting there having a dinner with my kids and my parents. We're the sandwich generation. And my mom is sitting there staring at her phone in the middle of dinner, you know, with, and again, I wanna have the most charitable sort of take on this. Like, wow, a phone didn't even exist. The idea of a portable phone, the idea she could hold it in her hand, the idea that she could have this instant communication. She almost feels like she needs to use it as much as possible. I don't know, I mean, how do you think about it?

'Yes, no, that's great. And you know, what you're referring to is this idea, there's a term called phubbing, like snubbing somebody with your phone. And there's so much data to show that even the mere presence of a phone on the dinner table, like even if it's face down, almost always guarantees that the conversation will not go deep, because somebody is anticipating that this phone is going to go off. So you end up staying in a very superficial and also I think hyper-vigilant state. Like you may not even be aware of it, but I feel like if I'm having dinner, let's say with friends that I haven't seen in a long time that are like so dear to me, if one of our phones is on the table, we're anticipating an interruption. We're saying that somehow you are less important or I need to leave my phone and look, we get it. If there's physicians on the tape or on call or if you're a mom or dad, you want your phone available. But it says to me that you're not able to prioritize and assess what is really important. And it's not that they don't value, because I'm just thinking about your mom at the dinner table. And I would say, if anybody were to say to her, do you value the time you have with your son and your grandkids? She would say absolutely. I would give my life for them, right? Like they would do anything for you guys. But they don't recognize that at that moment, they are hooked. Like I hate to say, I don't use the word addiction lightly. I don't use it lightly because it has, in psychiatry, very specific connotations. But we can certainly call it compulsive or problematic use. And what you see is withdrawal signs. Like if you took their phone away, it's literally, they start to become irritable. Most of us have the habit of sometimes walking into the bathroom with our phones, right? Like it's another limp. And so it's the extension of our body, but that irritability, that confusion, who am I? What am I missing out? So with the younger adults, there's this concept of FOMO, fear of missing out, but with older adults, it's a fear of being isolated. They call it phobia, F-O-B-I. You might be like, that's ridiculous. My mom is not isolated right now. She's on the dinner table with her family for like, you know, a rare special occasion. But I feel like this phone to them is their lifeline. It's their sense of relevance. It's her sense of connection. And it's like, what's happening in India? What's happening to my relatives? What's happened in wherever? And I think that as we get older, we start to become scared that we're no longer relevant, that we are not in control, that bad things will happen to us. I feel like in some cases it's the loneliness. And then even when you're trying to draw them out of their shell and say, but I'm right here. You know, they're like, yeah, but you're here now but you not gonna be here tomorrow. My phone is always going to be here. My phone and the world. It's a world that they've entered. And I can also, I think in some ways relate to that because I feel I had dinner with a psychiatrist friend and she has no digital footprint. Like none, you can't find her on LinkedIn. There's no website. And she's like, I don't understand this world that you're a part of, what is Instagram? And trying to explain how compelling it is that you get sucked in, you have a persona online that you have to maintain. She's like I don't get it, this is crazy.

What goes through your mind? Do you think that that person is missing out or are you jealous of them in a way?

Yeah, you know, I would say a combination of both. Like, I was recently in Japan with my family for two weeks and I, a few days in, I decided, you know, am going to be off of social media. And it was the longest break that I allowed myself to not post, to not engage, and it was the best two weeks of my life.

So you sort of did a digital detox, sounds like of your own in Japan. Tell us about that.

Yes, it was such a powerful experience, like at first I thought I came back and I felt completely rejuvenated and I said, of course I'm rejuvinated, right? Like I'm walking 20,000 steps a day, I'm visiting temples and shrines and I'm with my family, I'm not working, I am in nature, so of course. And then I came and literally this study that came out a year ago in 2025 published in Washington Post said that a two weeks digital detox resets your brain to having attention span of somebody 10 years younger. And it reduces depression and anxiety to the level of somebody who is on antidepressants and cognitive behavioral therapy. So I was thinking, okay, so it's not just time and nature and being off and being in this lovely country that improved my mood, but it was actually not being online. And this study asked people, if you wanna be online, get on your laptop or computer, but don't use media or internet on your phone. And that to me was so powerful because I'm thinking of all the things that bring my mood down. I love social media. I love being on the internet. It's so helpful. It's part of my job, but there's this constant feeling of comparisons of not good enough. Am I relevant? Am I staying? Am I doing this? Am I that? Am I do enough? So when you strip away all those elements, I do think that if anybody could do a digital detox of any amount, you know, even if it's reducing your use, there's an app that the study had used. It was called a freedom app. Basically it shuts off the access on your smartphone. And then what it does is you're welcome to use time online, but then you have to be deliberate about it. But to me as a psychiatrist, the fact that simply removing the mindless scrolling on your phone can show numbers, reduction in anxiety and depression. Even if you don't have clinical depression, the irritability, a lot of people are just on edge because of everything that's happening in the world, socioeconomic reasons. But if that can give you results as powerful as an antidepressant and as powerful as cognitive behavioral therapy, and these are two things that show, you know, 70 to 80% reduction in depression and anxiety, then I'm like, this is powerful, right? This is free, and this is within our control.

'Look, I feel like everyone should hear this message, and it will, I think, fundamentally, it makes sense. I don't think people will argue with this, and yet sometimes that is the nature of addiction. I think we spend a lot of time talking about young people's brains still developing, and the potential impact -- harmful impact -- of exposing that brain to too much screen time, too much social media, et cetera. What about older people's brain that are now you know, presumably fully developed. Is there any data on what is actually happening to their brains?

So there's this concept of digital fog or digital dementia, and it's not a true dementia. But what we do see is that all of the symptoms in older adults of attention span decreasing, of cognitive offloading, which is like, oh, I don't need to use my brain. I can just use Google Maps. Memory retrieval goes down. That ability to make, synthesize both rational logical information along with emotional information that goes down, your executive functioning and your inhibition goes down and that's a problem because if it's your impulse control that you need to control in order to not use your phone and if that's gone you don't have awareness because you don't have that impulse control and judgment you're gonna use more the screen more and you're also more susceptible to scams. So when your brain is flooded with this cheap, very temporary source of dopamine. When you post a picture and you're seeking thrills with the dopamines and the lights, which we do see in the older adults, or even just short form video content, we're losing our attention spans. We are offloading memory. What you need at this time is a mental workout. And just the way the muscle is your organ of longevity, your brain is as well.

I will tell you, just on a very practical level, I had this conversation with my parents. When they retired, they were trying to decide where they were going to live. I think there's always this tendency, I think, for people at that stage of life to say, hey, I want to live in a place that is some beautiful view. Maybe it's a view of water or view of the mountains, whatever, something like that, and have that thing be a part of my life. And I remember saying, hey, I think it would be much better for you not to do that, not to find a beautiful house, but a house that might be isolated, and instead live in a community where no matter what you're gonna be in or you're going to walk out your door and you're likely to see other human beings and walk around and there's, you know, things that keep you active, close by, tennis courts, whatever it might be. And I think that's been a really good thing for them. But it kind of flips, I think, the scenario for a lot of people of retirement a little bit on its head because the idea that now I want to get away. The problem with getting away is, as you're pointing out, that inevitably where that leads to is a lot a time on the phone. You're not staring out the window at the mountain all day. You're staring at this thing.

'Totally. And one of the things that I'm seeing is that in mid-life, like there's this idea that if you want to predict somebody's health at 80, look at their relationships and the quality of their relationships in their 40s and 50s. And that the quality of our health and the quality of life depends on the quality our relationships, because it's so easy when you're in the sandwich generation to not invest in your friendships. And like you said, like I think about retirement, I'm still early, but I think where would it be? And I'm so glad you said that to me. The beautiful place. Cause I, my husband, we were in Italy and I was like, oh my God, I could live here, you know? And then I was thinking, but then I would be away from all my friends. So you could take the beautiful places. Obviously there's ways to integrate both travel and friendships, but I think that's one of the things that has become on the back burner. Like I'm, I'm very social, but do I make it a number one priority in my friendships? Not as much as I should. So, you're making me think about that when you're talking about what is best in retirement. Is it the mountains or is it the friendships? Ideally, you have both, but I do think friendships are a key part of the health.

After the break, much more with Dr. Sue Varma. Stay with us. There is a issue with too much phone use, screen time use, social media use, for all the reasons. What it does to your brain, potentially becoming scammed, interfering with your brain function, maybe making you more vulnerable, more likely to not remember things, all of that. But I think this idea of what to do about it then, I think, because if it's your kids, you can tell your kids hey man, no phones in the bedroom at night. You're the parent, but what about when you're the kid? How would you approach this sort of conversation? How would guide us to approach this conversation with our own parents?

'So, first of all, it has to come from a place of love, of curiosity, of openness, non-judgmental, and really trying to understand a day in the life of the elderly person and saying, you know, I wanna come and spend time with you, because I think in a lot of cultures, there's expectations that our kids are gonna take care of us. But understanding what the expectations are, because if you're trying to give advice, they're like, well, you're not here, And the reality is yes, I have my own life. I'm a professional. I have children, right? Like mom and dad, I cannot be your source of entertainment and joy all the time. But still, asking them open-ended questions, spending time with them, even if it's a weekend, they're home, to be like, what does this person do? What does my parent do? A lot of times, they've got the TV on literally from morning until night. And it's just this idea of having another person's voice. It calms them down. It soothes them. They do not see this as a problem. That's the problem. And you can say, I love you. I totally understand that this is now your surrogate spouse if the person is widowed, let's say, or this is your surrogate community or friends, but I want to show you the evidence. I want to show your data. And I do think that most older adults are smart. They like evidence and they'll say, all right, sure. And you can say, listen, above two and a half to three hours of screen time, that is when it becomes like there's a law of diminishing returns. As pleasurable as it might be at this point, not only are you not getting the benefit, you're getting the harm that's associated with it. How, as a result of screen time, how has your exercise habits, your sleep habits, your time and nature habits and your connection habits, how have they changed? Do you think that your screen time is potentially interfering with these opportunities? What does your socialization look like? How often are you seeing people in real life? And they'll say, well, I've got friends all over the world or wherever, and I talk to them on the phone. No, no, no. In person, how often? Do you belong to a community center? In some states, they will pick the senior up and take them. I mean, this is not like, I know that I have a cousin in Massachusetts and my aunt will spend the way you have daycare. She's physically healthy. It's like senior daycare, it's like she'll spend eight hours and they'll play games and they have aquatics and exercise, it's a full day robust rich program. Most people are not utilizing. They're not even aware of what the community has to offer. Oh, I don't like those people, but their lectures, the local libraries. So if anybody is like, what do I do with my parents? I just say, even if they don't want to reduce their screen time, even if you think you're interfering, just ask them, these are the things I need you to do. I need to populate your calendar with activities that bring you pleasure, meaning, and joy outside of the screen. So you love gardening. What can I do? Can I show up to your house with tools? Do you like pottery? Would you take an online class? So tapping back into those hobbies, I think are really helpful.

'You know, my kids, when they go to these camps sometimes over the summer, they are device-free camps. And I will point out to them when they come back, as you were when you came back from Japan, they're super happy. And I remember saying, hey, look, look how happy you are. You know you weren't on your phones for two weeks. And one of my daughters said to me, she goes, but dad, you have to understand that we use social media to be social in a way. When we're isolated, when our rooms. We didn't have to use social media because we were surrounded by a group of people. And therefore, it didn't feel as necessary for them. So look, I just want to say for anybody who's listening, I don't think either Dr. Varma and I, either one of us, want to sound like we're being preachy about this. These are challenging conversations. And especially when it comes to your parents, you know, I do worry about them having phobia, I think you call the fear of being isolated. These are legitimate concerns. And, you know, I mean, the idea that your parents want to have purpose in their life, especially as they get older, that may be the most important thing that we can really hone in on. I often think, I just want to give my parents things to look forward to.

Yes.

'So they're coming to visit me in a few weeks, and they're really looking forward to that. That sense of anticipation --

Yes.

'-- think can be quite helpful as well.

Totally. And they found that like with grandparents letting them know like you have a graduation, we have a birthday party, putting things on their calendar, it actually extends their life and improves their health. So definitely anticipation. And even like planning a vacation, however small it might be, even if it's the equivalent of movie tickets or Broadway tickets or something social, every six to eight weeks giving them something to look forward to, whether it's a visit from you, whether it is a family reunion, even it's six months down the line, but that says. I need to stay active, I need to stay healthy, I needs to stay sharp. It sends the message that I still am important, not to turn this conversation too dark, but I'm a psychiatrist, I work with people who are survivors of suicide, or who think about it, and I think about older adults, and what are the risk factors? And one of them is feeling like you're a burden, and that you don't matter anymore. So this idea that I'm not a burden that I matter, if you feel that you are a burden on somebody else, just say, what can I do to offer you help? And it may seem so counterintuitive because I think when a lot of times people age, they feel like I'm not relevant, I don't matter, you don't need me, but just making them feel relevant. If you know your mom makes great aloo parathas, be like, mom, you make this such a good thing. Can you please make it or some version of it? So mastery is really key, I think, for older adults. And the other thing I would say is with their phones to make them slightly less enticing, the idea of making it gray scale so it's not as colorful or like. Small little things like, okay, you'd like to watch the news. Could I get you a subscription to a paper newspaper? Because they grew up with that. That was the norm for them. Or I need to know the time or an alarm. So I bought old school alarm clocks for my kids and for my dad. So, I was like, anything that you're going to use as an excuse to turn to, or how about a watch? An old school, nice watch so you don't turn to your phone. So just thinking of all the small hacks. But to me, I think the most effective component in this instead of taking away is adding back the nature. Just saying, even going for a walk. You know, like one of the things my parents would always do together was there was a duck pond park near our house. And that was something that they used to do routinely together every single day, like sunset. And it was beautiful. And there's this idea of nature relatedness that do you appreciate nature? So my dad has a nature journal. He'll talk about the flowers. And I very much appreciate that and that beauty. One of the museums I was at in Hakone in Japan, there was a quote from Van Gogh under one of the photos and it said that, you know, if you appreciate nature, you will see the beauty in life. And I think that the older generation is more in tune with real life conversations, with appreciation for nature, for books, for literature. So give them books, what do you wanna read? So populate their calendar, crowd out. That's gonna be the best way you're gonna win with them.

'So mom and dad, if you're listening, listen to Dr. Sue Varma. Even if you don't listen to me, listen to Dr. Varma. That was Dr. Sue Varma. She's a board certified psychiatrist and clinical assistant professor at NYU Langone Health. She's also author of the book, Practical Optimism: The Art, Science and Practice of Exceptional Well-Being. I gotta tell ya, there's some really helpful tips in there about being more present and not constantly glued to your own devices. Something I think we can all benefit from. Thanks so much for listening.