podcast
Chasing Life
All over the world, there are people who are living extraordinary lives, full of happiness and health – and with hardly any heart disease, cancer or diabetes. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has been on a decades-long mission to understand how they do it, and how we can all learn from them. Scientists now believe we can even reverse the symptoms of Alzheimer’s dementia, and in fact grow sharper and more resilient as we age. Sanjay is a dad – of three teenage daughters, he is a doctor - who operates on the brain, and he is a reporter with more than two decades of experience - who travels the earth to uncover and bring you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet – so that you too, can Chase Life.
Beyond the Headlines of MAHA With the FDA
Chasing Life
Oct 3, 2025
Dr. Sanjay Gupta sits down with Dr. Marty Makary, U.S. FDA Commissioner to dig beyond the headlines of this Administration’s latest efforts to “Make America Healthy Again.” This conversation took place on Friday, September 26th, 2025.
Our show was produced by Jennifer Lai, with assistance from Leying Tang, Kyra Dahring, Jesse Remedios, and Nadia Kounang.
Medical Writer: Andrea Kane
Showrunner: Amanda Sealy
Senior Producer: Dan Bloom
Technical Director: Dan Dzula
Episode Transcript
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:00:01
'Whether it is the food in your fridge, the medicine in your cabinet, or the sunscreen in your bag, someone has to decide if it is safe. And in this country, that someone is the Food and Drug Administration, the FDA. Now it's probably easy to take it for granted as yet another one of those three-lettered government agencies. But the FDA plays a pretty crucial role in all of our lives. They ensure the safety, effectiveness, and security of a very wide range of products. Everything from human and veterinary drugs, to vaccines, to medical devices like pacemakers. And lately, the FDA has been in the news, a lot.
Archival Clip
00:00:45
The FDA will now advise doctors that there is this link, they say, between autism and acetaminophen.
Archival Clip
00:00:51
The FDA has approved the vaccine for specific groups, limiting access for some who may have been able to get it in the past.
Archival Clip
00:00:59
'Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has launched an FDA review of Memphis Pristone. It's a drug used in two-thirds of abortions in America. Abortion rights activists say they're worried the review could lead to a ban.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:01:10
The FDA has been at the center of some of the most pressing and polarizing health debates happening right now in the country. And look, it's generated a lot of questions. So I decided to sit down with the person leading it all. Dr. Marty Makary, he's a surgical oncologist and earlier this year, he stepped into the role of FDA commissioner. I really wanted to know what was going to change under his leadership. What does he want to reform? And how does he see the FDA's role at a time when science, politics, and public health are more entangled than ever before? I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta and this is Chasing Life.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:02:00
Dr. Makary and I sat down together in Atlanta last Friday, September 26th, for this conversation. Well, thank you for your time.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:02:07
Great to be with you, Sanjay.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:02:08
Really appreciate it. What are you in Atlanta for?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:02:10
Yeah, so we're doing a CEO listening tour. So we're listening to drug developers and companies tell us what they think the FDA can do better.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:02:17
Do you enjoy those types of tours?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:02:19
Yeah, you know, I thought it would be a little bit of diplomacy, get to know people, but I'm actually getting very specific suggestions on things we can fix at the FDA. And there's no shortage of things that are broken to fix at FDA. I want to modernize the agency. So a lot of what we do is along that theme of modernizing the process. Why does it take 10 to 12 years for a new drug to come to market?
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:02:42
Why does it? Because I think sometimes the concede is, look, these are important things. They should take a while before a drug is approved in this country. You want the gold standard evidence, evidence that other countries even look at to determine their own drug approval process. Should it be streamlined? Is there a risk in that?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:03:00
Look, well, first of all, you have to keep the same high standards of safety because that's our number one job. But when an application sits on a desk for three months, you're not increasing the safety evaluation by just adding time. There's so much idle time. For example, after a preclinical study, the company reapplies then for a phase one trial, then they reapply for a phase two, then the reapply for a, you know, Phase 3, and then they do a final NDA. You wouldn't apply for college after each year. So we can run more continuous trials using modern technology to have eyes on the endpoints of a trial in real time. Our regulators look on and we have a lot of offices. It's a bureaucracy and the applications get farmed out when we could use our convening power to bring people together in a tumor board style meeting. That's something that we're starting. And so we can get decisions out in our new program in weeks, which is unprecedented at the FDA.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:03:59
You took care of patients one at a time. And now you're a public health official now. Individual care versus care for the masses. And this comes up with things like vaccines and FDA approvals for medications. How do you balance individualism with public health?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:04:16
'Well look, I got disillusioned in medical school after three years and kind of left and drifted over to graduate school for public health. And I've often thought we're not addressing some of the big ironies in health. That is, we don't talk about root causes. We see massive problems expand right in front of our eyes. So one thing I love about the FDA is we get to focus on food and healthier food for children is a massive priority. You saw our action to remove the nine petroleum-based food dyes. We're now at the next level of chemicals. We had one of the largest food makers, Tyson, remove titanium dioxide. Mars company did the same. They're getting rid of all high fructose corn syrup, Tyson food is. And BHT, which is a preservative. So we're starting to see some moves in the food supply. Because look, our obesity problem in children, which is rampant, it's not a willpower problem. It's not their fault. This is something we are doing to kids.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:05:17
There is a problem with regard to obesity and diabetes and, frankly, overall health. We're a country that spends $4.5 trillion on health care. And frankly, we don't have much to show for that. But at the same time, how do you pinpoint then food dyes?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:05:42
Look, there's a thousand ingredients in the US food supply, chemicals that don't appear in the food supply of Europe. So getting rid of any one is not going to make our population significantly healthier. But there is a randomized control trial that found that these petroleum based food dyes are associated with ADHD. We don't otherwise have a good explanation. And there are natural cost neutral alternatives. The FDA went ahead and approved in my five months that I've been there, about five months. We've approved four natural ingredients with natural elements, four food dyes in lieu of the petroleum based dyes. We're going to approve two more. Normally the FDA approves one every several years. We approved four. So we want people to enjoy whatever they enjoy. But if we can just take small steps towards healthier ingredients, then I think it's a win.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:06:32
It seems like they've tried removing food dyes in the past or at least curtailing them to some extent. And they found that people really didn't buy those products. Their Fruit Loops, I guess, weren't bright enough or cheery enough. I remember when Michael Bloomberg did this thing with sodas in New York and people accused him of sort of propagating the nanny state. Is that a valid criticism? I mean, again, I hear what you're saying. I have kids. I think about this stuff all the time. But at the same time, where do you draw the line in terms of, hey, we have the evidence to act now versus we think, and as a result of our thinking, we're going to take something away from people.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:07:10
Yeah, it's a balance. You're always trying to keep a balance, but you're absolutely right. The vibrant colors of the food dyes make the food more attractive. And studies have shown that it actually messes with the mind of a developing child to the point where they can be attracted to the food even though they're already full. And that may in part be what's behind some of this rise in insulin resistance. So we shouldn't be messing with the minds just to sell more products of children. There's a huge tide in the United States that says, this makes sense. Republican, Democrat, independent moms showed up in high numbers to vote over this MAHA agenda. They believe in it. The companies see the writing on the wall and are already making moves to use natural ingredients. We just want to set a level playing field and a common time frame so that one company doesn't have an advantage over another company.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:08:05
Are you, are you still operating? Are you still, is that, is that still part of your life?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:08:09
No, I hung it up. I was in the operating room the day before my Senate confirmation hearing.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:08:14
Yeah.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:08:15
And that might have been my last operation.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:08:16
You dedicated your whole life to being a surgeon, to caring for people in that environment. But it may be time to move on to something else.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:08:24
This is so much bigger than anything I've done. It's such an exciting opportunity. I have a very clear goal. I want to see more of these cures and meaningful treatments out quickly. And I want not cut a single corner on our safety evaluation.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:08:41
Those two things, I think, can sometimes seem at odds with each other. And also, in the wake of all this, are these significant cuts that are happening across the government, including the medical establishments. Do you have the resources you need to do what you want to do?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:08:56
So first of all, it may sound like they're at odds going fast and maintaining high safety standards. But if you think about a phase three clinical trial that runs for, say, two years, that's idle time. We should be doing our manufacturing inspections. We should reviewing the lion's share of the application, reviewing the label, all the complicated stuff. In the 100,000 page application that comes to the FDA for a drug, the clinical trial part is a piece of it. That can read out at the end. And we can do our reviews during that idle time. So we can do much faster reviews without cutting corners on safety. And we said, we're going to create a new FDA where everything is centralized. And we're gonna consolidate all the communication staff. And I think it's a much more efficient, better FDA now.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:09:45
Do you feel like you have what you need now to do what you want to do?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:09:49
Yes, but the task is massive, right? We're trying to follow research as it happens. We're looking in the pipeline of the drugs that are coming in saying, oh my gosh, this looks amazing. This could help people with an otherwise debilitating, hopeless condition. And the safety profile looks strong. Let's put it at the front of the line.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:10:11
Up next, Tylenol, autism, vaccines. And what Dr. Makary says is the future of drug regulation in America. We'll be right back.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:10:27
Let's talk about this past week with Tylenol and autism. First of all, how did that hit you? I know you guys have been talking about autism for some time and the health secretary said that there was going to be a report in September issued about this. If you can, just take me a little bit behind the scenes for when did this start hitting your radar?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:10:47
'Yeah, so look, we have this charge from the president and the secretary to look into autism. It's now two and a half million kids in the US. It's surged in our lifetime. It was rare a generation ago. It's not one in 12 boys in California. And as you know, Sanjay, it can be a brutal medical condition for some kids. There's a spectrum, of course, of severity, but for some kid, it's sad to watch. They're crying, they can't talk, they wanna talk, they know they wanna to talk and they can't, and so it could be brutal. So we wanted to tackle this with an evidence-based approach. So what we did is we started looking into the potential mechanisms that could cause autism...
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:11:30
Let me just, just one thing, and I wanna talk about the mechanisms, but what do you think is driving the increase in autism?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:11:37
'I don't know, but I think there are a couple plausible mechanisms. Number one, an autoimmune response that may be blocking the folate receptor at the blood-brain barrier. Number two, some degree of mitochondrial dysfunction that may interact with the same pathway or a different pathway. And number three, alterations in the microbiome. Maybe there's something there, maybe there's not. Maybe circadian rhythms play a role. I don't know, I'm just throwing things out there, but the autoimmune response to the folate receptor is a very interesting mechanism. And we felt like when we had at least talked to enough experts that felt that this is worth sharing with the public, we said, let's go ahead and share this ahead of any report. And Leucovorin bypasses that blocked receptor and may be a therapy that some doctors may choose to use. There's a group of doctors in the United States, I don't know if you've spoken with any of them, who have reported some pretty impressive clinical results. Using Leucovorin in individuals who test positive for that folate receptor antibody.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:12:41
And that's about what, 60% or so of children who have a diagnosis will test positive?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:12:47
Yes, and maybe 20% overall may see a market improvement with Leucovorin. The rest may have some improvement, but not as significant.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:12:55
'You're talking about a B-vitamin that is reduced to the point where it can bypass that potentially blocked, if you will, receptor.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:13:02
That's right, it's methylated so it can go past the receptor pathway to get it through.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:13:08
So this brings up this point again of evidence threshold. Do you treat something like leukovorin differently because we're talking about autism, something that doesn't really have a therapy? Will it go through FDA approvals and more quickly than other?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:13:23
I think because it's safe, it will go through a different process. And because it has been around for nearly a century, it will through a difference process. And because of the urgency of the unmet public health need of the burden of autism in society, and the incredible experience that clinicians have. Now, as you know, NIH, as a part of the announcement, announced $50 million in funding to study this question more. Maybe a couple of randomized control trials will find the effect size is small. Maybe it will find that it's large. But that's a question that we'll see answered. Maybe there's a subgroup that benefits more from the therapy.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:13:58
Do vaccines cause autism, do you think?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:13:59
I don't think so.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:14:01
It seems like it's a big sort of rallying cry of this administration. We've got a health secretary who's said this, flat out. He has said there's no vaccine that is safe and effective. He believes vaccine cause autism.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:14:11
Well, I think there's no medicine that's 1,000% safe. And I think we have to remember that with everything. I think the absolutism around some of this stuff creates mistrust. And when we say they're 1000% safe and it's impossible for there to be a single complication of a vaccine, that's the kind of rhetoric, I think that doesn't resonate well. So I think, we have be humble and take a very honest approach.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:14:39
If you're hearing from the health secretary that there is no safe and effective vaccine, that he's drawing these links between vaccines and autism. You're saying that you don't believe that's the case, but if that's message that gets out there, could you potentially be scaring people away from something that could really be helpful for them?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:14:57
Ya look, I think if the media misconstrues what he's saying, yes, it could unfortunately scare people.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:15:01
Can I call you Marty?
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:15:02
Yeah, please.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:15:04
Marty, I mean, he said it. So he's also said, how do you reconcile that with the fact that he said the best way to prevent measles is through vaccination.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:15:11
I feel like he was forced into that one because he was in the middle of an outbreak.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:15:13
Well, that's a theory of yours, but to only report piece of what he's saying.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:15:16
'All right, all right. I don't have, we should follow up on that discussion for an entire podcast, but I do want to talk about this Tylenol thing though. So you're up there, you're hearing the president say, don't take Tylenol, nobody should take Tylenol. That was weird to me. First of all, the fact that it was the president saying that, but you've said, I agree with you, that we shouldn't be speaking in such absolutes, and yet the commander-chief did exactly that.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:15:44
Not really, you're making it an absolute. He said that there are exceptions, three times he said it in the same speech. And he said, it's between you and your doctor. So that part has been left out of the coverage of what he said.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:15:59
I wanted to jump in here for a second and say that we did take a close look at president Trump's speech on September 22nd. In that speech, the president said, "taking Tylenol is not good" and "ideally, you don't take it at all" The president used the phrase, don't take it, and don't take Tylenol at least 10 times. However, yes, the President did caveat this a few times, saying pregnant women could take it when medically necessary. And they should consult with their doctors for more information.
President Trump Archival Clip
00:16:31
But, if you can't tough it out, if can't do it, that's what you're gonna have to do. You'll take a Tylenol, but it'll be very sparingly. It can be something that's very dangerous to the woman's health. In other words, a fever that's very, very dangerous and, ideally, a doctor's decision, because I think you shouldn't take it.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:16:55
Okay, back to our conversation.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:16:58
Look, take it up with the dean of the Harvard School of Public Health who believes there is a causal association between prenatal acetaminophen and autism.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:17:05
Did he say that?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:17:06
He said that.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:17:06
There's a causal or an association?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:17:08
'He said there is, I'm gonna quote exactly what he said, there is a casual association between pre-natal acetaminophan and the neurodevelopmental disorders of ADHD and autism spectrum disorder.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:17:22
What is a causal association, because I always thought there's associations and then there's cause and effect.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:17:28
Yeah cause and effect. He thinks the acetaminophen is causing this. Now, look, he may not be right. I don't know.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:17:33
I don't think he said that, though.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:17:34
No. He said that.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:17:35
But in the rest of that quote, he said there's a plausible causation. But in the thing, from what I read, he said that there may be an association between Tylenol and autism.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:17:46
I'll get you the quote. He said a lot of things.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:17:48
Okay, jumping back in here, to clarify, we went straight to the source, Dr. Andrea Baccarelli, the dean of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. And here's the statement that was sent to us. It's currently linked on the White House website this week as well. Dr. Baccarelli says in part, quote, as we noted in our review, animal studies have independently suggested that prenatal exposure to acetaminophen can adversely affect the developing brain. This biological evidence lends support to the possibility of a causal relationship between prenatally acetaminophene exposure and neurodevelopmental disorders, including autism. So, the possibility of a causal relationship in animals. But overall, experts say there are multiple causes of autism and the science showing a connection between autism and Tylenol is not settled. Okay, back to the conversation.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:18:48
'You know, I don't know, I think my job as a regulator is to say, and we did this, I don't know if you saw the letter the FDA sent out. We said there has been an association described. Other studies have found no association. We're simply including this information for you to think about minimizing the use of acetaminophen for routine low-grade fevers. And obviously, there's a safety track record with acetaminophen compared to other. Alternative, so we put out a very measured statement.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:19:21
Yeah I saw that. I thought it was very measured. I did think it was a little bit at odds with what the president was saying, but again, you know, maybe this is, you're suggesting maybe that's being misconstrued.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:19:29
I mean, look, if you don't cover the fact that he said that there are exceptions, which he said three times, and you don't t cover the fact that he says between you and your doctor. It is gonna seem at odds.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:19:38
But when you're up there listening to him, there's not a part of you saying, hey, look, maybe we should dial this down a little bit, or were you totally okay with how he presented it?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:19:48
Look, so we're the physicians. We are the physician community, and so we are gonna put out what we think are the measured recommendations. If an individual who's not a physician says something, it's okay, it's a free country. How many patients have you met that have different ideas on what caused their illness or what they should do differently, even though you might not agree with it? And so people are welcomed as, the questions that, for example, Secretary Kennedy are asking about health and root causes are the questions most moms are asking. And so we can say, that's crazy, don't list still, we can't hear that, that can't be in the public domain. Or we can try to use data as best as we can, as we did with the Tylenol letter, to say, here's what the data says.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:20:32
So Mifepristone, what is happening with this? There was a letter that went out to 22 Republican attorney generals. I guess that was in response to a letter they had sent you.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:20:39
'They'd sent a letter. They, people have concerns about an ethics and public policy institute study that was done that shows a higher complication rate than the complication that has been described using self-reported data. And so they have asked for sort of a look at this. And so we have an ongoing effort to look at Mifepristone.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:21:07
'Alright let me break into the conversation one more time to fill in some of the backstory here. If you're not familiar, Mifepristone is one of the drugs used in medication abortion and miscarriage care. In the letter sent by the 22 Republican attorneys general to the FDA, they cited a report from the Ethics and Public Policy Center as evidence that Mifepristone is risky. Now who is the Ethic and Public policy center? Well, this is a think tank that describes itself as, quote, pushing back against the extreme progressive agenda while building a consensus for conservatives. Their report, not a medical study, was authored by two of the organization's leaders, not doctors or medical researchers. And it was published on their own website, not in a peer-reviewed health journal. Experts we spoke to said that the report, among other shortcomings, lacks transparency with respect to the source of the data. And is not a methodologically rigorous or evidence-based resource. Okay, back to the conference.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:22:12
'We look at the reports that come in. We have adverse event reporting systems and we do our own studies. So we have to do it. And I wanna do it for every single drug that's approved by the FDA, not just one or two here and there, not just vaccines and Mifepristone. We should have eyes on a drug immediately after it's approved. So we're gonna have a new system to use big data because as you know, you can pull together electronic health record data now that protects privacy, anonymizes the patient so it's de-identified. And watch how the drugs are working in big data. That's one of our big projects.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:22:50
Is there a point where you say, hey, look, it's good. It's safe, Mifepristone 25 years, I think roughly 2000, I think it was approved. You have lots of data. I mean, are you suggesting it has not been evaluated along the way and there might be something new that's of potential concern?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:23:06
'Well, again, I think people get very interested in this idea that something is, we can rest assure that something is 1000% safe. And the reality is no drug is 1000% safe. So we're gonna continue to look, for example, we could discover in our ongoing analysis in Mifepristone that there's a drug-drug interaction that we were not aware of. If we find that, we're going to let people know.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:23:32
So is there ever a point where you say something is good? I mean, it's...
Dr. Marty Makary
00:23:37
Well, it was approved. It's approved.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:23:38
It's approved. So, I mean but the reevaluation of something that's been approved, that's out there for a long time, seems like it's a little bit of a waste of resources considering all the other things you wanna do.
Dr. Marty Makary
00:23:48
Well, we wanna do it for every single drug. And so we're gonna have big data analysis.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:23:52
For 4,000 drugs?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:23:54
Yeah every, yeah, we're going to start with the drugs from last year and the year before. It's about 100 drugs. Now this year, we may hit a record number of drug approvals. We're working very hard and we may very well hit that target. But the drugs this year and last year in the year before we're starting with that group. And so, we can do this at scale. Now we have a charge from Congress to review the application pharmaceutical companies send to us to decide whether or not the claims they wanna make about a drug are consistent with the data they submit. That's our job. And so if safe and effective is generally the standard and then we approve a drug.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:24:30
Got it. Well, look, one thing I wanted to say, I read your opening statement. I heard your opening statements and you talked a lot about your father. You're a medical family. How much of who you are today was influenced by your dad?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:24:43
100%, amazing guy. How many docs have we met in our careers that are a thousand percent selfless? And so my dad is just one of those docs. There's a great quote that, who else knows about the value of human life than the witnesses of birth and death. And in medicine, we see that all the time. And I think people need to turn off the echo chambers of social media and realize we all want the same thing. We want a healthier population, healthier kids. We don't wanna see 40% of our nation's kids sad because they have a chronic disease. We don't wanna drug our nation's kids at scale. We wanna talk about root causes and the environment and food as medicine and the microbiome, gut health and the soul. And these are topics that traditional medicine has pushed to the side. And so there's a movement now to say, let's talk more holistically about health. And you've done a lot of that.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:25:39
I've tried to, and I think that is who most humans are. Right? We don't wanna take any medicines if we don't need to. We don't wanna have surgery if we need to, but do you foresee a time when things aren't so political? Because you can't disentangle anything from politics nowadays. Health secretary says, hey, eat right and exercise and it becomes a political statement in a way. It's weird. And I say that as somebody who's done this sort of work for 25 years, it's particularly weird right now. Is it gonna get better?
Dr. Marty Makary
00:26:09
Yeah, I hope so. I hope, so look, I was raising a flag in the air over the last four years of COVID saying, let's be objective. You normally evolve your position as the data comes in if you're being objective. That's what we do in medicine. And the idea of digging into a position, we saw that crossover into how people saw their health. And I still see it today. I see it. Well, the science and the science is clear and the sciences, no, the sciences is a process of asking questions and a healthy discourse among experts. And that I think is something we need to restore. I'd like to see more civil discourse, people that have different opinions. Let's talk about your ideas. Maybe you're right. Maybe the data here is compelling. Maybe it's not compelling. If we show more humility, I think we can win over some more public trust.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
00:27:07
I wanna thank Dr. Makary for that wide ranging interview and for agreeing to sit down and talk to us. Now our actual chat went much longer and you can listen to that and watch even more of it on our Chasing Life YouTube channel. Thanks for listening.
