Welcome back to Terms of Service. I'm CNN tech reporter Clare Duffy. Recently, one of our producers was at a dinner with a group of young millennials when they discovered that all four of the couples had met on Hinge. Maybe you can relate. Online dating has been part of modern romance for years now. And it's no surprise that as the internet evolves, so too does the matchmaking. Apps like Hinge have gone through evolutions of algorithms and updates as they try to get better at helping people find love. But at the same time, I've also heard a lot of frustration from dating app users lately, that it's hard to tell who's being honest and genuine, or that the seemingly endless options of potential dates can make it harder to find a serious partner. To better understand the current state of online dating, I turned to Hinge CEO Jackie Jantos, whose own marriage is a dating app success story. We talked about the evolving needs of Gen Z daters, whether AI can help us find love. And she offered some advice for people seeking connections this Valentine's Day season. My conversation with Jackie after this short break. Hi Jackie, thanks for being here.

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

So before we get into the current state of online dating, you actually met your own husband on a dating app. Tell me about that. Do you remember what your first dating app interaction was?

'Oh, of course. I had recently moved to Atlanta, a city that I sort of knew no one in. And my therapist at the time encouraged me to keep the app channel open, just to explore and sort of try everything that was out there. And, my husband at the time was getting a PhD while I was working, and our paths would have literally never crossed if we hadn't met in that way. I had always said that I was looking for someone who was really passionate about something, and I didn't necessarily care what that thing was, but I just love that in a person. I love that passion, right? And he fit the bill, and from the get-go, it was just a great experience.

I love it. Did he message you first, or did you message him first?

He messaged me first, and he was getting a PhD in communication and philosophy. And so, I was very suspicious about his authors that he had listed as some of his favorites. And one of them was Michel Foucault. And so this was sort of a curiosity that I wanted to debunk. It felt like a very interesting thing for someone to put on a dating app profile.

I love it. I feel like this is like, we'll get back to this in the advice section of the conversation, but the specificity there that like gave you a jumping off point, I feel like it's really interesting.

Absolutely, it is very important to building your profile and to how our app works. And yes, it gives you countless ways into conversation, which is really important.

Okay. So we'll get into a little bit how hinge is actually not necessarily fitting within this trend, but broadly, I think in the culture right now, there's the sense that there is serious dating app burnout happening right now. I talk to friends all the time who are like, I'm giving up on the apps. I can't do it anymore. What do you think is behind that?

Yeah. I mean, dating. Has always been hard, you're putting yourself out there and people can go into it with a real fear of rejection. And so it's never really been an easy thing to do. I think what we're observing is that the needs of people have changed quite dramatically as they do every generation and every decade. My parents' relationship was very different than mine and my husband's is very different than what I imagine it will look like for my gen alpha children. And the dating apps haven't really kept up with innovating the product experience to meet the needs of young people.

Sort of on that note, outside of the tech of it all, we have been confronted in recent years with lots of changing questions and expectations around gender roles and how men and women relate to each other as women advance in terms of education and earnings. Do you see that showing up in terms of how people behave on the app?

'We do see the evolution of each generation being more gender fluid and fluid and how they think about their identity and the relationships that they want to be in. And so four years ago when I joined Hinge, we made a very strategic pivot to focus on Gen Z. And with that comes all of the conversations around the needs people have in what kind of relationships they want be in and the fluidity of those. When you look at, for example, the LGBTQIA+ spectrum, the largest growth within that umbrella is really coming from bisexual folks. And the makeup of the audience on Hinge is more than half representative of Gen Z. And so we see all of that fluidity. And the make up of our organization as a company matches the makeup of our app. And so, I love learning and seeing how all of these things are evolving over time.

Hinge recently surveyed more than 30,000 users looking for connections on the app to learn more about Gen Z's dating habits. What did you learn from that process?

Yeah, we do a lot of research to understand where relationship needs are going so that we can meet those through the product experience. And this report that we recently put out was really about the communication gap. So for example, we know people want to have rich and deep conversations, but that's really not meeting their experience on the app or when they meet in person. So we really started to identify all of these gaps and what people's wants and needs are and what they're actually experiencing and getting.

Hinge has bucked the dating app downturn trend. You're bringing in paying users at a time when many other platforms are losing them. What are you doing differently that's working?

Yeah, we have this expression that Hinge is the dating app designed to be deleted. And what that means is we are focused on getting people off the app and integrate dates. And that outcome is what we measure within the entire app journey. The organic growth and all of the business success comes from actually serving the need of daters. And so I think that singular focus on the outcomes of people using the app is a huge point of differentiation for us in the category. And I also think how we look at culture and the needs of emerging audiences and how we design with those audiences in mind is the other point of real differentiation. We have this principle to design with, not for, and this means that when we're designing our product experience, we are bringing people into the conversation very far upstream, looking around the room and saying, who are we designing for, and are those individuals represented in the process of doing this work? And if they're not, we widen the room and we bring partners in.

This is sort of like off topic a little bit, but it's just fascinating to hear at this moment where so many companies are kind of moving away from inclusivity efforts in this political moment that we're in, because maybe it seems politically advantageous. So it's interesting to hear you talk about why that is so important for your business.

Yeah. I think if you're building a product that is in service of Gen Z, you are really missing an opportunity if the people you're building for who are representing year over year, a more diverse group of individuals, if they're not in the room helping guide those product decisions. You know, we're working to build an app that is sustainable for the long term. And when you look at Hinge sort of going back to when we made this pivot around building for data outcomes. Since then we have been very specific and our growth has been steady. And so you have to bring your core audience into the room.

After the break, Jackie shares how users can get the most out of Hinge's design features that are tailored to data outcomes. In other words, getting people off the app and into relationships, and how AI is helping. I want to talk a little bit more about how you design the app for those data outcomes, getting people off the app. Talk to me about the Hinge algorithm. How do you decide what kinds of potential matches to show any given user?

Our recommender is really built to find an individual who you would be interested in, who importantly may also be interested in you, so when we talk about how the app is built, onboarding is the first part of the app experience and our onboarding is longer than the onboarding in other dating apps by design. Twenty percent of people decide not to complete onboarding because it's asking for too much effort. And we're okay with that. You know, we want this to be a community of people who are highly intentioned and share that sense of wanting to find someone to be in deep partnership with. So the algorithm is built leveraging all the information that we know from you, all the signal we get in how and who you interact with on the app. And ultimately trying to match someone you would like with someone who would like you.

For people who have found successful matches on Hinge, do you have any data on how long they spend on the app before they find that successful connection?

We have a lot of data around how people build momentum on the app experience. For example, we know that if people chat for three days and then move to a date, they are more likely to find success on our app. So we don't look at any individual feature in isolation in terms of its specific use. We look at the whole ecosystem. So onboarding is built to gather quite a lot of rich data. For example, we have prompts on Hinge. That was an aspect of the dating app that we really brought into the category. And these are icebreaker questions. And we're really trying to extract specificity around your interests, because going back to my story with my husband, that allows people to lead into a conversation. So prompts are intended to build out a richer profile. And instead of wholesale liking or disliking a profile, you can interact specifically with a piece of writing around someone's prompt or a voice prompt where you can hear someone speak to something. And so really engagement is key and then moving down towards engagement with less people. We have a thing called your turn limits where you can't engage in more than a certain number of conversations. Because we want people to also be respecting others in a way where if you're collecting conversations, there's another human on the other side of that who's probably waiting for you to respond and might not get that response. So we're constantly building momentum to get people off or at the beginning we add friction so that we can get more information and make sure you're of the same community.

Yeah, the turn limits is so interesting to me because I know there are sort of, there are some people who have the sense of like, oh, dating apps feel like a game. You know, there's a million options. And so that I feel like is a really interesting way of like no, pair down your choices here. Are there other steps that Hinge has taken to address that communication gap that you talked about where people want to be having deeper conversations but aren't?

Yeah, you know, some of the tools we're using that are fueled by AI within our app experience are helping solve some of those problems. So I talked about the importance of specificity and prompts. We have an AI feature called prompt feedback. So if you choose to take some guidance from that, it will help you write a better prompt. So we're getting more specificity, and longer answers out of you. So if were to say, I love watching movies, that's not necessarily a great prompt that another person can lean into. That we'll ask you to share. What kind of movie is, what was the last movie you saw? How are you feeling about, you know, the Oscars, kind of things like that. And one of the other features that we recently tested and ended up productizing in the U.S. is called Convo Starters. And that's one where similarly, people wanna be having deep conversations, but we see a real problem on Hinge is a conversation that starts like this. Hey, hey, what's up, what' up? And that doesn't necessarily help people get into something deeper. So convo starters is an example of a tool reacting to that communication gap where it offers knowing the other person's profile. Why don't you ask them about this? Maybe consider talking about this. Here's something you two have in common. Let's, let's go in with this. You know, so there are features like that, that do help close the gap.

On the point of AI, you know, it seems like one of the things that people are often frustrated with when it comes to dating apps is the sense of like, it's hard to tell how authentic the person on the other side of the screen is, what's real, what not. Could AI have a detrimental effect there? Like how do you balance wanting people to get a real sense of who's on the other side the screen while also helping them in these ways that you're talking about?

'You know the way that we think about AI is we want to support daters who are looking to tell stories about themselves more authentically. And so there are really three ways that we use AI at Hinge. The first is our recommender, which I spoke about earlier, which is really important to help match people who may be compatible with one another and may be interested in each other. The other way is our profound trust and safety tooling. It is really important if people are showing up as themselves in a space that is quite vulnerable that they feel like they can do that safely. And then the third way is some of these guidance-oriented tools like prompt feedback or like convo starters. So it does play a big role in helping people bring themselves into the space with more authenticity. But at the end of the day, our goal is to get people out on a date. And so you're gonna show up in person with someone. And we've done our job if you show up exactly as the other person expected you to show up. So it is very important people feel like when they meet, they're meeting the person that they met on Hinge and that feels consistent with their expectations.

And sort of on that note, like, Convo Starters is, in fact, just a starter, right? It's not like AI is going to continue to say, and here's what you should say next, and here is what you, is that right?

Yes, that's right. Same with prompt feedback. We're giving you ideas and suggestions. You don't have to take any of these suggestions or even engage with these tools, but they exist to help you and give you some support should you need it. But we're not going to tell you what to say, and we're going to write a message for you. We are certainly not going to write profile for you, the purpose is for you to show up as yourself. Because again, you're meeting in the world as a human with another human, and that's where our job is done.

Speaking of AI, as someone who is in the business of connecting humans, I wonder what you make of the growing trend of people forming very personal relationships with AI chatbots.

'Yeah, you know, I try not to be judgmental and to be really open-minded and empathetic for the needs that people have. We're living in a world where particularly young people are feeling acutely isolated and alone. We see this in all the data around the loneliness epidemic. People are looking for connection, and they're finding it in all different ways. And that's life, but at the same time, a relationship of two people in person is a profoundly different and more powerful thing. And there is friction involved in that. An AI companion, you're not necessarily having to put in the equal work listening to it as you would with another person. There's no conflict in that relationship. Companions in that space can be deeply affirming of who you are. And so I question sort of the growth of you in that relationships. We are very bullish on the value of having two humans connecting.

Okay, so if someone is listening and thinking, I want to find my person this year, I am open to using a dating app to do it, what is your biggest piece of advice?

Have an open mind, show up as yourself, earnestly put effort into the experience. Try to overcome some of the hesitation you feel to put yourself out there, because vulnerability and discomfort, this is all part of relationships and life. And keep trying, you know, relationships are messy, there's lots of twists and turns. And for a generation, Gen Z in particular, who have spent less time in person. There's a real lack of practice in all of that. So you have to just keep practicing.

I've heard this like complaints concern from some people about "Hinge jail" where they feel like their algorithm just like isn't giving them anything they're interested in. Sometimes you hear this like, well, maybe if I paid but I don't want to have to pay to get good matches. What is your response to that? Is there a way to sort of refresh your algorithm?

One of the things people can do is go back to their profile and look at the prompts they've chosen and look the responses they've given in those. And sometimes adding more specificity and refreshing your profile can be a really great way to start engaging a different group. The other thing I'll say is we have a lot of data on how profound it can be if you open up your filters. You know, there's this behavior where people come into a dating app and they think they know exactly what they want. And when you talk to people who are in long relationships, you know myself included, I never imagined marrying my husband or someone like my husband. And so I always say, and we see it in our data, if you open up your filters and relax the idea of who you think you're meant to be with, you can have profound impact. For example, the distance of how far away a potential partner is, one mile. Are you willing to travel an additional mile to meet the realm of people that might open up to your possibility? You know, I think the answer is always yes. And the pool of individuals around you, the unexpected partner that you may be wanting to meet could potentially exist on that fringe.

Hmm, that's such good advice. Sort of on the flip side of this, if someone wants to find their person but is skeptical of dating apps, what is your pitch to that person to give hinge a try?

You know, I was also skeptical of dating apps and, you know, 15 or so years ago when I met my husband, they weren't really a thing and they weren't a thing that people felt comfortable with or openly talked about. I think it comes back to what do you have to lose if you're not finding what you're looking for in your current situation with your current community, you're hesitating to go out into the world and look because that can feel intimidating. It's a channel to open up to support what you're looking for and to be another possibility. I think you can go in with an earnest sense of I'm gonna present who I am. I'm going to be specific in my prompts. I'm go to put up some pictures that show who I'm and what I love to do. And I'm gona see if something comes from it. I think the only way to get through that skepticism always is to have a bit more of an open mind. And to be honest with yourself, if you're not finding it, why not, you know?

Well, Jackie, thank you so much for doing this. This is so interesting and I think really will be helpful to a lot of people. So I appreciate your time.

I hope so. Thanks so much.

'If your dating life can use a little refresher, perhaps this is your sign to finally try the apps or give them another go. Updating your profile with specific details and widening your match criteria might bring new folks into your dating pool. As Jackie said, the AI features on Hinge are designed to invite thoughtful conversation and can be useful for sparking connections. But make sure to stay true to yourself. I also like what Jackie said that the app is there to get you offline and face-to-face with someone. She said three days is often a good length of time to chat before getting off the app and into an in-person date. And, like anything else, dating takes practice. There can feel like a lot of pressure around finding your person, if that's what you want. But just getting out there can be a meaningful way to grow. That's it for this week's episode of Terms of Service. I'm Clare Duffy. Talk to you next week.