Hey, everyone, I'm David Chalian, CNN's political director. And welcome to the CNN Political Briefing.

And all of us are here as friends of Donald Trump, supporting him in our personal capacity, sharing our opinions. That's why we're here today.

I think one thing that we've all known is this was a sham trial. But when you have an opportunity to see it up close and personal, you can see it's actually a scam trial.

Ladies and gentlemen of America, this this trial is a joke. This thing is a farce.

That was the fake Ramaswamy. North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum and Florida Congressman Byron Donalds. All three Republicans are allies of former President Donald Trump. This week, they gathered in front of the Manhattan courthouse where Trump's hush money trial is ongoing. This has already led to some speculation that they were auditioning to be Trump's running mate. And it all begs the question who will win Donald Trump's veep stakes? Elaine Godfrey is a staff writer for The Atlantic. She joins us now to weigh in. Elaine, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Thanks so much for having me.

So I am always of two minds about Veep stakes in general. I should just put my cards on the table for you up front in this conversation, because I am not convinced that the running mate actually matters in the outcome of the election. There are a couple of instances where you can make the argument they mattered, maybe in a negative way, more than in a positive way. But for the most part, I think American voters and I think a lot of research backs this up. They're voting on the number one on the ticket, but we in the press spend an inordinate amount of time on this topic because it does indeed enter new characters into the drama and characters that are going to potentially be a heartbeat away from the presidency. So it's not unimportant, I get that. It just in terms of the campaign impact, I'm never quite sure the impact matches up to the coverage. So having said all that, I'm excited to talk to you and do a full Veep stakes episode. And my first question to you is sort of what is different, do you think, in Donald Trump's search for a running mate in 2024 than it was back in 2016?

I'll say first, I'm with you on that. I think that it can sort of only hurt you. I just don't think it can help you as a presidential candidate who your VP pick is. I don't know, unless it's like a celebrity or something, but it is just fun for us in the press to have someone new to talk about, for sure. Trump. I mean, and I think especially this time around, it doesn't really matter. Like it extra doesn't matter this time around. And I think that's because it's different this time. Like Trump the first time around picked Mike Pence as a way to quote unquote, balance out the ticket. Right? They had no idea really, at that point what whether he was going to have success. Evangelicals didn't trust him. They thought, let's pick somebody like Mike pence, who has this sort of establishment credentials. He's the opposite of Trump personality wise. He can get these evangelicals on board. Let's pick this guy and balance out the ticket. I think Trump every day probably regrets that decision a little bit more based on, you know, Pence's behavior since January 6th and the sort of increasing criticisms of Trump we've gotten from pence. I think Trump really regrets that decision. I think that coupled with the fact that, you know, I guess you could imagine maybe Trump's last go at the presidency, maybe not. Maybe in four if he loses in four years, he runs again. But I sort of feel like he's just doing what he wants this time around. I think he's looking for someone who matches him personality wise. I think that is the main consideration for him. That's what's different this time around is it's not about geography or what you bring to the ticket to balance it out. It's about whether you're a good partner, a loyal partner to Donald Trump in everything he wants to do.

So in speaking of that loyalty, I think we're seeing it right now, just in the last several days, play out in a couple different ways. One is the parade of people who are going down to the court in lower Manhattan to show support and play surrogate where Donald Trump can't due to the gag order and others can speak all his talking points. There's that piece of it which we'll get into in a moment. But I also think a lot of these potential hopefuls have been asked if they will accept the election results in 2024, and they are sort of playing footsie with this notion of, well, if it's a fair election or what have you. Again, that seems to be yet another loyalty or litmus test that Trump may be looking for when looking to, as you said, put someone that sort of completes the vibe. Check for him on the ticket. So let's start with the parade of folks in lower Manhattan. What do you make of who you've seen down there? And if that kind of public support is something that you think is important to Trump's consideration?

Yeah, I'm actually writing about this for The Atlantic right now. It absolutely matters to him. I mean, this is what matters to him, right, are displays of loyalty. And, you know, we've heard that the campaign has invited them directly to come down. But I think for some of them, they're probably just coming down. I mean, this is a great time to demonstrate your mettle to Trump, to demonstrate that you're in it, to win it with him, to show that you love him. You know, that you've got his back. And it helps that there's million cameras there and a million reporters there. I mean, it's free press. We saw Vivek Croma Swamy, we saw JD Vance, we saw a bunch of these sort of vice presidential contenders. Doug Burgum is another gathering there. But we also saw some little guys, right. Like we saw, Brenna Bird, the attorney general from my home state of Iowa, who decided, I guess, to just come out from Des Moines and say her piece in front of the. And, you know, she's obviously not auditioning for VP, but she's auditioning for maybe something or maybe just to be thought of in in Trump's inner circles, you know, maybe just to be thought of in the future. And I think that this has just become like, this is just such a glimpse into what the party has become. There is no platform. There are no real principles that Republicans stand for. They stand for Trump and they stand up for Trump. That's sort of the whole thing right now.

And can you handicap for me where you think the short list is? And obviously we should have all the caveats. You know, Trump could prove to be the most mercurial guy in the world. We've seen that time and time again. So any thinking that we are even close to him settling on a pick I think is far fetched at the moment. He's been pretty clear he's not going to name someone until right before the convention in Milwaukee in July, which is pretty par for the course these days for campaigns. They don't want the VP hanging out there too long, getting picked apart, by opponents in the press and the like. There does seem to be a winnowing a bit of this potential field. And I'm wondering where you sort of placed the shortlist. Now.

'To add on to the caveat, I do think it's important that we remember that, you know, reporters like me will say, you know, I talked to someone on Trump's in Trump's inner circle, and here's what they said. But the thing about people in Trump's inner circle is even they don't know what Trump is thinking, right? He is famously unpredictable, indecisive, bases decisions on the last conversation that he had. So I think it's totally right. We're not going to know this for a while, but I think we can safely say what Trump is looking for, which is loyalty, which is someone who won't outshine him, but maybe would be sort of a mini, more faded version of him. Perhaps we have some people who fit that bill Tim Scott, for example, Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina. He is, according to my reporting, an excellent fundraiser, a schmoozer, someone who is really well liked, or at least was kind of until this point in his career, when it sort of become a little more clear that he's auditioning for this role of vice president. I think some people have been disgusted by that display from him, or some Republicans who don't like Trump. Anyway, I think that Trump probably sees Tim Scott and thinks if I pick him as my VP, I'll win black voters. I'll get to peel them away from the Democrats. And I think, I mean, I hit him like he totally might be, right. But I think that that's sort of his consideration with Tim Scott. That's why I think he's up there. I think the Trump campaign is very intent on winning over black voters this time around. Then I think you have someone like Doug Burgum, who now he's the North Carolina, North Dakota governor. Listeners may not remember, but he ran for president. Sort of a low key guy. I mean, very pro-Trump. He has been one of these speaking to the press outside the court in support of Trump, criticizing the sham, quote unquote, sham trial, etc.. And he's ambitious, but I think not in a way that intimidates Trump. I think, you know, he's from North Dakota. He's from a safe state, so they don't have to worry about, you know, competing motives or something for him. I think that he is actually pretty high up there on the consideration list, just given sort of his in offensiveness. And I also think another one well, I guess two more. So you have Elise Stefanik, New York Representative Elise Stefanik, who she would sort of be this balance out the ticket kind of person, given that she is a very sort of establishment New York Republican, but she has really done a 180 on Trump in the past few years and has really embraced him. It's very clear she's auditioning for this role as well. I don't know, though, whether Trump would see through that and sort of not. Not see her as genuine or see her as sort of a phony. So that's hard to tell. And then I guess the last one would be Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who also a woman, a competent woman and has worked for Trump before. So he trusts her. Right. I think that she's never really flipped on Trump. She's always been pro Trump. She's currently the governor of Arkansas, sort of a Maga lite kind of governor. He probably looks at her, looks at Stefanik, and thinks maybe suburban women will vote for me if I have a woman on the ticket. Those are sort of the four that I think of in my head right now.

I think that's a very good list of four. We're going to take a quick break, dig into some of those potential vice presidential running mates with Atlantic staff writer Elaine Godfrey in just a moment. Welcome back. We're here with Atlantic staff writer Elaine Godfrey. We're talking about the latest on presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump's search for a vice presidential running mate. This time around in the 2024 race. One name you didn't mention earlier was Marco Rubio, who has been mentioned. And I'm wondering what you think of his name being floated as a possibility.

For two reasons. I think he's a longer shot. The first, just his relationship with Trump. While it is, it seems okay now, while they seem to have, you know, mended their relationship. I mean, it was so bad for so long. They were rivals. They said horrible things about each other in the 2016 campaign. I just, I don't it would be hard for me to imagine Trump picking someone like that, that he has such a past beef with, although he's had a beef with a lot of people, so that would sort of narrow down the list a lot if he was ruling all those people out.

There's also the residency issue, is there not, as it relates to Marco Rubio.

So the second issue is the logistical issue, which is he would well, number one, he'd have to leave the Senate. And number two, he'd have to move, I guess, because, electors according to the Constitution can't vote for a president and a VP from the same state. So that that is a very important hurdle. But, you know, if Marco Rubio, Rubio really wants to set himself up for VP, maybe he'd be willing to move. Who can say.

Who can say? But I think the first two names you listed, I am with you that on today's facts, as we sit here and record this in the middle of May, I also would have Tim Scott and Doug Burgum as the top two in my list. And I think the Burgum thing also is the, the wealthy businessman thing. I think he's just a familiar figure to Donald Trump's universe in that way. If you're not trying to really solve a political piece and you're Donald Trump and you're just looking for like, who can I vibe with here? And that will remain loyal but not soak up my spotlight. This sort of like out of central casting business executive turned politician made good for himself. It just sort of fits, I think what Trump's vision is of of a vice president. But again, all the caveats apply. I have no idea where he will end up being. And I agree with you. Neither does anyone around him. And no, he will end up here. And I don't think we've gotten to the official sort of deep vetting process yet that the campaign will undoubtedly have to do as they get closer to making a decision. Of course, one of the big moments beyond the selection of the vice presidential running mate and that person's appearance at the Republican National Convention, the other big, huge campaign moment that may or may not happen, but may happen, is a vice presidential debate against Vice President Kamala Harris. The Biden campaign put forth the notion that they would like to propose to the Trump side a vice presidential debate to take place this summer, late July, between the two accepted presidential debates from both Biden and Trump, the one in late June and the one in September. They're proposing a vice presidential debate right after that Republican convention. Have you in any of your reporting, in the last few hours, come across any idea if that is likely to happen or not?

I think that would be hard for Trump to commit to, because he that means he would have to make a decision all that much quicker. Right? And they would have to do this vetting faster, pick a candidate. And then that means, you know, an extra couple of weeks of media scrutiny on this person that Trump probably doesn't want you. He likes milking this, you know, will he pick this person? Will they won't they kind of thing going on. He loves that. So no I mean I really haven't I feel like it's not likely. But it was a bold it was a bold play from the Biden campaign.

Speaking of Vice President Harris, one of the. I guess, intriguing things to me. This cycle we had seen during the Republican nomination race, so much fire from Republican candidates and the RNC and others. On Vice President Harris, it was like, you know, Nikki Haley would say all the time, a vote for Biden is really a vote for Harris. And trying to position the vice president as sort of the boogey woman that voters should be concerned is sort of the shadow president in waiting. Because Biden won't be able to complete a term is the whole kind of concept of selling. Donald Trump never really sunk his teeth into that argument, and he, as a presidential candidate, has not gone. I mean, we know he's capable of going after all of kinds of his opponents. I haven't noticed him going at the vice president too much. And I'm wondering, I don't know, is that a lack of respect for the role of vice president? Does he not think it's worth his time to go after her, or he doesn't think it serves his political purpose? I'm curious if you have observed that and had any thoughts about that or reporting around that, because to me it's a surprising lack of a development, if you will.

No. It's so funny that you say that because I have noticed that too. Like Republican candidates I've interviewed or talked to or seen on the stump, all talk about Kamala, or at least in the primary, they talked about Kamala, and some of them still still are. But Trump himself doesn't. I don't know why I think that you're right. That part of it is he just doesn't care about her. He doesn't care about the role. He doesn't see it as worth his time to mock. And I think the other part is just he's having a lot of success criticizing Biden. Like, you can criticize the old man, you know, in his terms much more easily than you can. You know, this black woman. And also he's trying to win the votes of women. I think that even Trump recognizes maybe, maybe criticizing women. Talking about women is not the strongest path of attack for me personally.

Yeah. I mean, just look at how he has tried to position on the issue of abortion. He is so keenly aware of the politics around that issue in the way he talks about it since Dobbs, since I and I know he brags that he put the three justices on the court that overturned Roe, but he blamed the midterm outcome on Republicans not properly positioning on this issue, and has basically been saying that Republicans haven't gotten right on this issue. And, you know, he's, I guess, now hoping the position of just like it's left to the States is going to be the safest harbor for him, but he seems to put politics first on an issue that all the polling indicates. I mean, it's up most important to Americans broadly, but it is very important to female voters as well.

'Totally. I mean, Trump, he has really had his finger on the pulse of abortion since Dobbs, as you said, Trump wants it all ways, right? He wants pro-life voters to look at him and see a pro-life candidate, but he also wants his voters to look at him and see someone who is more flexible and leaves it up to the states and maybe is doesn't support these sort of really strict bans, but supports a reasonable ban. Like he just he wants voters to look at him and see what they want to see. And I think for the most part, at least in my reporting, he is successful with that. I mean, there are tons and tons of MAGA supporters, Trump supporters that I meet at rallies who are pro-choice. You know, there aren't a ton that I meet at rallies who are pro-life. I mean, that's sort of a different group of people. And a lot of them, frankly, in the primary, supported DeSantis. So I think that there's like a really interesting thing going on here that Trump is doing. And I think that, you know, ultimately it's very smart of him. And it sort of is the thing that a Republican candidate should be doing is trying to thread that needle, because being anti-abortion is just a deeply unpopular position right now in this country.

Well, I do wonder when he does get down to a real short list and starts vetting people, if indeed these potential vice presidential running mates will reach out to Mike pence for advice on how to be or not to be Donald Trump's vice president, because that will be awkward given the very public split Trump has had with Pence. I don't know how helpful or not a conversation with Pence will actually be, but Elaine, I look forward to continuing to read your reporting on this topic as you continue to stick with it. And I thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you so much, David. This is fun.

'That's it for this week's edition of the CNN Political Briefing. And we want to hear from you. Is there a question you'd like answered about this election cycle? Is there a guest you really want to hear from? Give us a call at (301) 842-8338, or send us an email at CNN Political Briefing at gmail.com. And you might just be featured on a future episode of the podcast. So don't forget to tell us your name, where you're from, how we can reach you, and if you give us permission to use the recording on the podcast. CNN Political Briefing is a production of CNN audio. This episode was produced by Grace Walker, our senior. Producer is Haley Thomas. Dan Dzula is our technical director and Steve Lickteig is executive producer of CNN Audio. Support from Alex Mansory, Robert Mathers, John Dionnora, Leni Steinhart, James Andrest, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. And special thanks to Katie Hinman. We'll be back with a new episode on Friday, May 24th. Thanks so much for listening.