podcast
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
David Axelrod, the founder and director of the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, and CNN bring you The Axe Files, a series of revealing interviews with key figures in the political world. Go beyond the soundbites and get to know some of the most interesting players in politics.
Ep. 580 — Jen Psaki
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
May 16, 2024
For former press secretary and current MSNBC anchor Jen Psaki, clear communication has long been a hallmark of her success, from door knocking in Iowa as a young campaign staffer to explaining to her kids why they should eat vegetables. With her new book, “Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World,” Psaki delves into what she’s learned about effective communication over the years. She joined David to talk about her book, the Biden administration’s messaging on the economy, how people are multilayered yet often caricatured, the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the ongoing war in Gaza.
Episode Transcript
Intro
00:00:05
And now from the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio, the Axe Files, with your host, David Axelrod.
David Axelrod
00:00:16
Jen Psaki is an old friend of mine and an old friend of this podcast. She's been a guest here several times. I met her first in 2007 when she was a young press aide on the Obama campaign, and I watched her grow into one of the truly great presidential press secretaries in my lifetime. Now she's a host over at MSNBC and the author of the new book called "Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World." I sat down with Jen the other day to talk about the White House and the world, and her work, and the art of communication, which she does so well, as you will hear in this conversation. Jen Psaki. How the hell are you? It's good to see you.
Jen Psaki
00:01:01
I'm good. How the hell are you?
David Axelrod
00:01:03
I'm good, I'm good. Now that I'm talking to you, my old friend.
Jen Psaki
00:01:07
Same. You're always my reminder and renewal of the good of humans who are had very successful political and media careers. So you always remind me of that.
David Axelrod
00:01:17
That's so nice of you to say. I'm not sure we'd get unanimity on that, but.
Jen Psaki
00:01:22
Well, same. Same here.
David Axelrod
00:01:25
'Coming, coming from you. Because that's how I would describe you. I would say the same. And anybody who's read you're brand new, sure-to-be-bestseller book "Say More" will get that sense of you as well. Before we get to it, I want you to say more about "Say More." But before we get to that, I just want to ask you how this transition has gone from spokesperson to anchor, and you hint at some of that in the book, but tell me about what the adjustments were to speaking for someone or an institution and, and now being an anchor where you're your own person and you are there to express your own points of view.
Jen Psaki
00:02:09
Well, I benefited from the fact that I spent the Trump years as a contributor at CNN, as, you know.
David Axelrod
00:02:16
Yes, we miss you.
David Axelrod
00:02:16
We sat on many a panel together. And that was an exposure for me in sort of how to do that or how to try to do that. But, one of the things that I and I tell the story about our friend, our mutual friend Robert Gibbs in there, who, and he probably doesn't even remember this, but I remember him calling me after he had left the White House and was a contributor somewhere and said, at what point can I criticize the president? He sort of said it in a joking manner.
David Axelrod
00:02:41
You mentioned that in the book. Yes.
Jen Psaki
00:02:43
Yeah, he said in a joking manner. And I thought, is this a serious question? Never. But it's that struggle with how to be authentic and a trusted and credible voice, which means sometimes being critical, and it also means not being gratuitously critical. Right. It's a it's a tricky balance. I actually.
David Axelrod
00:03:01
Especially because when you're being critical.
Jen Psaki
00:03:05
It gets picked up.
David Axelrod
00:03:06
And any criticism and any criticism you give will be received as gratuitous by your old friends.
Jen Psaki
00:03:12
Yes, yes, I will say to their credit, they've never called me when I have been critical, and I have been critical a couple of times over the course of my time in, you know, here. But I also got a little advice. I mean, you and I probably talked about this. But I got advice from people like Dana Perino and George Stephanopoulos and others about kind of that transition. Even though we all made different transitions. And how you kind of also signal to the audience that you're not speaking anymore on behalf of a person you're being asked about, which is the other part of this.
David Axelrod
00:03:45
The tricky part for you that you didn't have to experience the last time was your old principal, who you spoke for is in the middle of a reelection campaign.
Jen Psaki
00:03:57
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:03:57
So, you know, that sensitized you even more to being critical or not being critical. But there's also this thing. I mean, I remember years and years ago, but maybe before you were born, Jen Psaki but now I don't think I it was before you were born, but it was close.
Jen Psaki
00:04:15
I am a young buck, Axe. I am a young buck.
David Axelrod
00:04:16
Everybody knows that. But, when I left the newspaper business and I went to work for Paul Simon, who was a congressman in Illinois running for the U.S. Senate, I went to the first event with him, and he was speaking and people were cheering and clapping. And I was very still, because I was trained as a reporter not to be jumping into the fray. And I realized, oh, wait a second, I'm in the fray.
Jen Psaki
00:04:46
Yeah, I'm in it.
David Axelrod
00:04:47
But then you go, but to go back is a, you know, you have to rewire yourself again.
Jen Psaki
00:04:53
That's true. But I also think, as you know, this is like a very interesting time in media. In part because, time for million reasons.
David Axelrod
00:05:02
Is that a euphemism?
Jen Psaki
00:05:04
No no no. The transition, the transition. I don't think just the transition of thing, but I also mean there are people you and I have known for a long time. I mean, I think of Jonathan Karl as an example, right? Who is a hard nosed, tough as hell reporter who's been pretty candid about the threat he sees Trump poses to our democracy. Right. It's like a different time a little bit because of that. But I would say that that part I feel like I'm always transitioning through. The part I found, which you would appreciate, I think, because you kind of were a reporter and then you were kind of an adviser and you've got a back and forth, is that interviewing people and keeping the conversation interesting and compelling and listening for something that's interesting in some ways it's harder than being interviewed because the responsibility is on you. You're like the host of the party, right? So you got to. If it's boring or you're not asking interesting or hard or tough or compelling questions, it's on you in many ways. And that's been, part of the journey for me, too.
David Axelrod
00:06:04
But, you know, part of the way through that is just to be interested in people if you're, you know, people are interesting. Stories are interesting. And I know you have, you know, one of the reasons that you have always been good at what you do is, and you talk about this in your book, is you try and take a genuine interest in the people you're talking to and with and elicit from them what they're authentically, genuinely about and what they're trying to say and engage with it. That's in some ways a a lost art in the age of social media when we're.
Jen Psaki
00:06:40
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:06:41
Sort of, we're trained to be hostile and separate.
Jen Psaki
00:06:46
Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons, I mean, even though you do a million things, one of the reasons this is the shameless fandom of your of your podcast. I'm just going to do it anyway.
David Axelrod
00:06:55
I require that, yeah.
Jen Psaki
00:06:56
And that I enjoy listening to your, to the Axe Files is because one of the takeaways. And I actually had this conversation with Rashida and, you know, Rebecca Cutler, who you and I both know and love, and others when I was transitioning into this job is that.
David Axelrod
00:07:13
These are your bosses at MSNBC.
Jen Psaki
00:07:13
These are my bosses now. Is that, you know, I hope, even though it's tricky at times, as you noted, because the guy I worked for is running for reelection, I also have a lot of insights into who he actually is, which I think is useful. But working for a range of politicians and just being around them for so many years, I'm kind of this big believer that everybody's caricatured, right? For better or worse. And that the most one of the most fun things I've done in this job is go spend the day on the road with people and go, you know, and I. I spent that, I've done it with a lot of people. I wan tto do more once, once my book tour is over. But like I spent the day with Senator Warnock and Georgia, you know, and you kind of just see different sides of people. One, we went for a bike ride. I'm a terrible bike rider. So he just, that was he was really. Plus the bike was made.
David Axelrod
00:08:01
Did you get through it?
Jen Psaki
00:08:02
Plus the bike was made for somebody who was like five foot ten and I am not, as you know, so there's that. But I also we had lunch with religious leaders. We went to a farm. Anyway, point is you just see different sides of people, and everybody is multilayered. You are, I am, but certain this all these politicians are. And that to me has been one of the fun parts of this job too.
David Axelrod
00:08:21
You also see the country, which I think one of the hazards of Washington, of New York is that they are tremendous echo chambers of conventional wisdom.
Jen Psaki
00:08:33
Yes.
David Axelrod
00:08:34
And then you go out. I mean, one of the things that was advantageous to me in politics was that I was based in the Midwest and not in the and not in Washington. And when I came to Washington to serve in the White House with you for those two years I learned very quickly what our friend David Plouffe said, which which is that later, which is working in the White House is like looking at the country through a periscope. You know, and you very quickly lose your sense of feel. I used to assemble groups of people from outside Washington on a regular basis just to keep my my sense of understanding about what was going on. So I want to ask you one other question. Then I do want to ask you about your insights into the guy you worked for. One of the things that I found, you work for the president of the United States, and your identity is very much sort of subsumed by that person.
Jen Psaki
00:09:29
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:09:30
And you kind of surrender your own identity in a way, and you have to really work hard to recover it.
Jen Psaki
00:09:38
Yeah. That's so true.
David Axelrod
00:09:39
I mean, that was my you know, I had actually a pretty long and successful career before I went to work with Barack Obama, which was the ride of a lifetime, for which I'm incredibly grateful. But I was very intent on trying to recapture my own identity when I left there. And I was wondering whether you had those same thoughts.
Jen Psaki
00:10:03
Thousand percent. The challenge and also the huge honor and opportunity, as you just alluded to, of working for both Barack Obama and Joe Biden, who people would. Anyone who knows me probably knows me probably more from that, unless you're in Russia, and then you might know me from the State Department.
David Axelrod
00:10:21
You were a favorite over there.
Jen Psaki
00:10:22
I was a favorite. Is that, you know, this is human nature anyway, right? People project onto others who they think they are right? And it is much easier. My mother's a therapist, as you well know, so it's like the psychology of it is ingrained in me. It's much easier to put everybody in a box, right? Like this person is serious. This person is funny. Like, you can't be that combination. And especially because when you're the spokesperson, or for you when you were such a public advisor, I mean, to me, my Obama experience was you as well, right? And so if I feel that way, you unraveling from that must have been a challenge. But for me, I will still to this day of people say to me, oh my God, I thought you were going to be so stoic all the time, or so serious all the time, or so steady.
David Axelrod
00:11:11
Because you have to affect that.
Jen Psaki
00:11:13
That is the job.
David Axelrod
00:11:14
That is part of the job of being the press secretary.
Jen Psaki
00:11:16
Yeah, that is the job.
David Axelrod
00:11:18
You got to. You got to keep your stuff together all the time.
Jen Psaki
00:11:21
'Especially at that time. Right. Especially at that time. Because when I came in, as you know, we all lived through it. It was like we're following an administration where they're yelling at the press, they're lying to the press, they're berating the press. One of the things Biden asked me to do is lower the temperature in there, which means, it's like, be steady. And I had my moments where I was not and definitely moments where I screwed up. I talk about them in the book. But that was what he asked me to do. So that becomes your persona. So then sometimes if people meet you for the first time, they are surprised when you have multi layers, even though we all do. And I can be all the things, as you know. I can be like outlandish, I can say crazy things, I can be funny, I can be mad, I can be many, many things. But because people know you as that job, they're thrown off. I also found, you know, I was in New Hampshire for the Republican primary for like 5 or 6 days. And on the way there, I sat next to this guy who was a hardcore Trump supporter, and we talked for like an hour and a half. I just find it, like, fascinating. You know, this is like an interest in people. And we obviously disagree on things. We didn't debate. I just thought it was like an interesting understanding of who this guy was and where he came from. He came away, like we came away and it was like, it was really nice talking to you, right? I'm not saying I convinced him of anything. I just think that he was, he was surprised I wasn't like a four-headed monster, you know?
David Axelrod
00:12:50
And I presume you felt the same way.
Jen Psaki
00:12:52
Yes, but less so. Because I think that I have had. I know that people are caricatured, right? I mean, Stephen Miller and I are never going to hang out, right? Nor do I desire that. But I do think for a lot of people, like, I'm not I'm not like interviewing my neighbors about their political beliefs. You know, this is kind of. And I also think many people have, there's gray, and people are multilayered and have maybe contradicting. Like nobody meets litmus tests, right? So I think I am less surprised than maybe sometimes people are surprised that I'm, you know.
David Axelrod
00:13:25
So I have to tell you, I have a dog. I love my dog. So I'm not a Kristi Noem fan.
Jen Psaki
00:13:31
That was a hard turn. But yeah. Go ahead.
David Axelrod
00:13:33
'Yes. My my my my wife Susan, who, you know, and I, we hang out in a dog park, and we. This community has grown up around the dogs, and it is a very eclectic group. And there was one guy who was not a frequenter of the group, but was there from time to time, and he asked a guy there who my wife was. And he said, is she married to David Axelrod? And he said, because I think I saw him. He says, he says, I hate that guy. And he said, I don't--now, I've never met him. I mean, I don't know the guy. He doesn't know me. He hates me because of this thing, because of caricatures. And and then he looked up my wife and saw that she had started this foundation, to, you know, to raise money for research for epilepsy, because our daughter's life was roiled by epilepsy. And, he found the other guy, my friend, the next day and he said, you know, I was maybe I've misevaluated the whole thing. But in that dog park there are people with different points of view, but because they get to know each other in a different way, in a human way, and man, we need more of that. And I wish we could scale that. I, we get shoved into our silos. But, let me just, just I want to ask you about a few, a few things that came to mind to me in this book. First of all, you talk about being in the room and how important it is when you're a spokesperson in order to be credible to know what's going on. And you then have to go out and present what's going on from the perspective of the administration. This is. Are there times, were there times in the room when you just said, WTF, no one's going to believe that?
Jen Psaki
00:15:29
Sure. I mean, as you know, working in an administration, you argue your point. You don't always win. And you have a responsibility to argue your point. Right? That's what giving feedback is. And I mean, I talk a lot in the book about how it took me a journey to get there, right? I mean, I was. When we met, I was like 28 or something, 27. And I'm not it's not even an age thing. Some 27 and 28 year olds are like a lot more, you know, then I was at that point. But, it took me a while to get there. And that's part of your job to do that. But you don't always win. And to your point, you have to go out there and still argue on behalf, because you are speaking on behalf of the president or the secretary of state or whatever it may be. So many times, not many times, but definitely it's times. Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:16:16
And still be credible.
Jen Psaki
00:16:18
Right. And then you have to go back into your office and be like, WTF? I can't believe I have to like.
David Axelrod
00:16:24
So let me ask you about one of these things. And you, you wrote a little bit about this, and you wrote about how important you thought it was to bring your own experience into these meetings. And particularly during this horrible pandemic that we had that you guys arrived in that sort of in the teeth of. But this whole issue of schools and when schools would reopen.
Jen Psaki
00:16:46
Brutal.
David Axelrod
00:16:46
You wrote about that. And you went out there and executed the wisdom of the group. And the wisdom wasn't particularly.
Jen Psaki
00:16:54
It didn't go well.
David Axelrod
00:16:56
It wasn't particularly wise, which was, well, we're going to, our goal is to make sure that schools are open one day a week.
Jen Psaki
00:17:02
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:17:03
Now you're a parent. You. I think your your child was approaching kindergarten then. Right. But what did you say in the room.
Jen Psaki
00:17:12
Beforehand?
David Axelrod
00:17:13
Yes.
Jen Psaki
00:17:14
Beforehand I believe I argued like, I don't think this is going to go well, right. I mean, here's what parents are struggling with. And it wasn't. You know, the thing about my time there, I was not the only mom of young kids. Kate Bedingfield, Jen O'Malley Dillon, others who had little kids were in the room, too. Like, this is what we're all struggling with. This is what our neighbors are struggling with. At a certain point, you accept. And that was relatively early on, you know. And for me, when I went back to the Biden admin, when I when I joined the team, I was not on the campaign. I did not come from that world. And I was very aware of that. Right. So it took me maybe 4 or 5 months to really get my groove going where I could say I, I don't I don't think it's a good idea for me to go out and say that, which I did many times. But in that case, I argued my point. I probably should have argued it harder, but it was very clear as soon as I said it.
David Axelrod
00:18:07
Because you were right.
Jen Psaki
00:18:08
Right. You know, here's the thing about working in even as a spokesperson, and I and I did it over the course of like, I mean, almost 20 years. You know, how things are going to go most of the time. Right? And part of my argument, and I remember this certainly with President Obama, is, to his great credit, sometimes he would say, oh, well. Like, it's not going to go well, but like there's a more important issue than that, right? But you are, a part of your job is to be like, this is how this is going to sit if we say this. This is how people will digest it. And you become almost a predictor of that, because you understand the ebbs and flows of the media, right? I knew this was not going to go well, but you're like, I guess I'm going to be a good soldier on this today. Maybe I'm wrong, right? You kind of assume. You go out, you say it. To the credit of the group in our wrap up meeting that day, which as you know, same cycle of things still in the White House. Morning meetings, wrap up meetings. I was like, well, that didn't go well. So we got to say something different or probably even faster than that. I think I probably wrote a, here's what I think we should say going out the next time. And, you know, it did not come from a bad intentioned place, right. Which because it was like, we shouldn't overshoot.
David Axelrod
00:19:17
Yeah, that's what you said. You didn't want to overpromise. That's what you wrote.
Jen Psaki
00:19:20
That was the argument right in the room. And it's like, okay, there's some validity in that. But also people needed hope in the moment. And that sometimes is what you do as a communicator or a government official.
David Axelrod
00:19:33
We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. You talk about the importance of acknowledging mistakes. You acknowledge your own mistakes and you said it's, you say, and you're right, it's essential as a communicator. If you're going to be credible, you know you're not going to be right all the time. And sometimes you have to say, you know what? We didn't get that right. I didn't get that right. I said it wrong. You did that. Do you communicate to your principals the same thing, because they're the ultimate communicators?
Jen Psaki
00:20:21
Yes. And I think part of it is figuring out the right tone to do that through. And I talk about this in like, different kinds of bosses. And you've talked for a lot. With a lot of, a lot of these same people right? It's like Rahm Emanuel, who I talk about in there, what I learned pretty quickly is like, and I love him, but like, he's kind of an angry dog. And so you have to like, be angry dog back to some degree to get him to hear you. Which means being more aggressive than I would have been in, say, giving feedback to President Obama or President Biden in terms of the tone and how I framed it. Same was true with John Kerry for different reasons. Not an angry dog, but not a shrinking violet. And in order to get. When I learned and I tell this story in the book about watching David Wade, who had worked for him for so long, and this is one of the best things you can do if you're trying to figure out how to give feedback to someone is watch someone who's worked for them or with them successfully for a while and see how they do it, because it can often be a tell. And John Kerry answered a question by giving the, an expanded version of what he should not have said publicly at a press conference. And in the story I tell, David Wade basically says to him, that was terrible and a complete mess up. And like, I would never have said that to him beforehand. But I realized in that moment, I'm giving him feedback wrong. Like he does not need me to be kind of like, well, that isn't exactly how we would say it, and, you know, we'll fix it. You need something more direct. But it's different for everybody. But I do think that's part of it.
David Axelrod
00:21:58
Absolutely. And I think about Rahm, who I've known since he was 21 years old, and he's slightly more mature now. But, you know, I always describe him as, White House chief of staff, and people kind of think of him in the way you describe. But the fact is, he always his door was always open.
Jen Psaki
00:22:20
Yes.
David Axelrod
00:22:21
And he you and you could wander in there and tell him he was wrong. He will yell at you. You yell at him. But he would, he would, he would hear you.
Jen Psaki
00:22:31
A hundred percent. And I that that context is so important. And I do talk about this too in the book, too. I mean, the thing about Rahm. And I worked for him at the DCCC and also when he was the White House chief of staff, not as many times as you, but two times over. And he takes credit for my husband and I getting together. He warrants some of it.
David Axelrod
00:22:47
He does, all the times.
Jen Psaki
00:22:48
'He warrants some of it. Is that what I loved about him and working for him is he was direct, right? And I love direct bosses and people. It's just he was direct. If you messed up, he'd tell you. If he did something great, he would tell you. And when I, when he was the White House chief of staff, I mean, I was the deputy press secretary, then the deputy communications director. I wasn't in all of the senior meetings, but he would come to me directly and ask me to do something. Ask me what I thought of something. He just had this way of kind of breaking through the bureaucracy in a way that's rare, but but very effective and empowering a lot, as a person who worked for him in kind of, you know, mid-level roles.
David Axelrod
00:23:29
All the people you work for in these principal roles were men.
Jen Psaki
00:23:34
Yes. I know. I don't know why that is. I now work for a lot of women, which is cool and different.
David Axelrod
00:23:42
But I mean, that was that's the reality. It continues to be somewhat of a reality. It's changing. Thank goodness for that. But did you, were there additional barriers to you or did you find that you could just bowl past those?
Jen Psaki
00:23:58
I mean, there were barriers in the sense of like, I don't play basketball, I'm not a basketball player nor do I watch it. So I'm not going to like chitchat about basketball like around a meeting. Right. I'm talking about with President Obama. I realized over time that, like, he didn't really need me to be talking about basketball. Plenty of people to chitchat about basketball with, right? It's fine. I got more comfortable in my own skin about it. There were barriers in that sense, I think in, with some people. And I don't know this is a good thing or not. Like I became like, as especially as I got more comfortable my own skin, like one of the guys. Right? So, you know, there's that. But what I've also found, and you're an example of this for me, is that. Oftentimes when people say like generically, publicly, and, you know, if there were more women in charge, you know. I think more women should be in charge, like, that's great, a good thing. Or like, if more women were in power, more women would be empowered. And unfortunately, my experience has not always been that. And I have been helped by a lot of men who have helped me along the way, who have pushed me into meetings, who have pushed me to take risks, who have helped me get jobs. I have been helped by some women, but I've also been elbowed by some women. And I think that part of it. I don't mean to be negative. I'm okay. I'm where I am I am today. But the women not helping other women, the women climbing up the ladder and being like, guess what, I'm going to lift the ladder up, is more common than people actually talk about. I think actually for people who are my age, in their 40s, very much so. This is something a lot of women my age have experienced. So it's oversimplified sometimes. And I think that's important for people to understand. And I think and hope that as I see women who have worked for me, that I am not that, right, because I experienced it in a in a very negative way from far too many women, to be frank.
David Axelrod
00:25:47
The reason that people helped advance your career is because you're damn good at it. And, I mean, you were a very, as you wrote in the book, a very credible candidate for White House press secretary a decade or more before you got there after just a few years, because you had these innate skills and insights and temperament and so on that the world got to see later. We we talked about that on previous podcasts. Your, your, that experience. And so and I don't want to go there. But getting back to the mistakes and what you tell your principals. Maybe one of the lines of demarcation for Biden, if you just look at the polling, at polling. All, all the lines go back to the summer of 2021 and August of 2021, and the withdrawal from Afghanistan, which people forget also hit at the same time as the Delta variant. It was a terrible, caustic mix, but several times during that period. And the withdrawal from Afghanistan was not good. I mean, the overall goal was very defensible, and I think he believed it then. He believed it now, and many, many do. I mean, I think there's a very strong argument for it. And I was around in the early years when he argued for a different approach on Afghanistan in the first place. But the withdrawal was kind of a mess. And it it ended tragically. We'll talk about that, because there's another story that flowed from that. And yet he went on television several times and was insistent that this was a success. This was a success. Did you go? I mean, you may not want to talk about your internal discussions, but you must have watched that and said, this is not going to help his credibility. This is not good. Sometimes you have to concede the obvious.
Jen Psaki
00:27:48
Yeah. I mean, it was the hardest period of time I have experienced in government in all of the years I worked in government, in part because it was, I mean, you had a person hanging off of a plane trying to get out of Afghanistan.
David Axelrod
00:28:02
More than a few, yeah.
Jen Psaki
00:28:05
It was devastating. It was heartbreaking. Obviously the loss of life of men and women serving during the attack on Abbey Gate was the absolute worst day, that I have experienced. You also are in the foxhole of 20 hour days with people who are trying to make difficult choices among very terrible options. And that's not meant to be an excuse of anything. It it's meant to be. You've lived these moments, right? Where it's like, no option is great. Because there was not the option to stay, because Trump had negotiated a withdrawal date without any real specifics, had done nothing to get SIVs and Afghans out. It was difficult. Joe Biden wanted to get out of Afghanistan. That was a decision, as you said, a lot of people supported. There was this push and pull internally about how long to keep a presence there in order to get SIVs out, right, and get Afghans out who had stood by the American military for 20 years. Looking back.
David Axelrod
00:29:07
No, I understand, but I'm asking a clinical question from someone who is, in fact, a master communicator. John F Kennedy in 1961, one of his first events was the Bay of Pigs that the, you know, it was the the support of rebels in Cuba to try and recapture Cuba from Castro. And it failed miserably. And it was a mess. And Kennedy stood before the cameras and said, victory has a thousand fathers. Defeat is an orphan. Well, I'm the responsible officer in this government. And I take responsibility. And, you know, his approval rating went up five points.
Jen Psaki
00:29:46
Yeah. It was also a time before cable news, Twitter, social media, a right wing ecosystem. I think at the time, it was a feeling like if he didn't communicate why we made the decision, nobody would.
David Axelrod
00:30:03
No, no, it's not that's not. It's the question wasn't isn't it, wasn't it possible to separate the decision from the execution of the exit? In those final days, when people were hanging from the skids of airplanes, wouldn't it have been possible to say, I absolutely believe we made the right decision to leave for all the reasons I've said. Am I happy with the execution of it? No.
Jen Psaki
00:30:29
Sure it would have been. Would it have made a difference in his approval rating and the right wing attacks? I don't think so.
David Axelrod
00:30:35
I'm not sure that approval rating would have gone up, but his credibility.
Jen Psaki
00:30:40
Maybe. But I guess my point is that that's not the media's time of John F Kennedy, right?
David Axelrod
00:30:45
No it's not. Yeah, I agree, I agree. But generally speaking, I'm just following the dictates of your book.
Jen Psaki
00:30:51
No, generally speaking.
David Axelrod
00:30:52
When you, when you make, when the mistakes happen, you should acknowledge mistakes.
Jen Psaki
00:30:56
True. And actually at the time how I talked about it was the president and the team were choosing between two very difficult actions or many very difficult options. They're all imperfect. What's happened is a tragedy. That's how I talked about it at the time. Right. There are different layers. Well, the but there are also different layers of, as you know, communicating from the building. And sometimes that message is better from somebody below. Looking back.
David Axelrod
00:31:27
I mean, you guys put him on television three times to do interviews. So clearly you were putting them out there to be the principal communicator.
Jen Psaki
00:31:34
Yes. But also under duress and confusion about why he'd done, made the decision he had made. That wasn't clear at the time at all. People were. That was lost. Under attacks from everybody, from including from within his own party. And so, yes, could he have said the execution was not what it should have been? And yeah, he could have. Of course. I don't know that it would have made a massive difference given how challenging the visuals and complicated and complex everything was in the moment. That's all I'm saying.
David Axelrod
00:32:08
And I'm not trying. Honestly, I don't I'm not trying to putting you in a position to defend or be defensive.
Jen Psaki
00:32:15
I'm not. I don't I don't feel, I don't feel that at all.
David Axelrod
00:32:17
I'm just. My, my feeling is that there are times when it is it's important to acknowledge mistakes. I think it was such a great point in your book. That was one of those times. And that leads to another right now, which you are not there now. You're not there now. But I guess what I'm driving at. I mean, I think about how he's reacting to these questions about the economy.
Jen Psaki
00:32:39
Yeah. Well, I think that. Yeah. Do you I, I don't think that's about.
David Axelrod
00:32:44
That's not about making a mistake.
Jen Psaki
00:32:45
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David Axelrod
00:32:45
But that's about acknowledging.
Jen Psaki
00:32:47
Yes.
David Axelrod
00:32:48
How. Joe Biden's superpower has been his empathy.
Jen Psaki
00:32:52
Yes.
David Axelrod
00:32:53
People, you know this because you live in the real world most of the time. It costs a lot now. I mean, things are more expensive than they were a few years ago. That's not his. I will defend him on the substance, because the whole world is experiencing the same thing. And it's a big, the the pandemic has a lot to do with it. Predatory pricing has a lot to do with it, people taking advantage of the pandemic. But, you got to acknowledge it. And it's he's been grudging because he wants to get credit for the rest of the economic record, which is pretty impressive. And so where I'm driving at is that, you know, I'm not a New Testament guy, but there's a line there that says pride goeth before the fall.
Jen Psaki
00:33:40
Yeah, I don't know that I'm a New Testament gal, but I will say, there's a point in there. Which is acknowledgment. I think it's. Yes, but I also think it's like acknowledgment paired with like contrast. Right. We can acknowledge.
David Axelrod
00:33:54
For sure.
Jen Psaki
00:33:54
Housing is too high. The cost of housing is too high. It's still hard to buy a car, things like that. But like, here's what I. You know, I think what they get caught up in, and I, you and I, I think agree on this, is like the credit on data. Right. And the credit on.
David Axelrod
00:34:12
Yes.
Jen Psaki
00:34:13
Plans being approved. There is, he does have. He's gotten a lot passed. I mean it's a great record, right. But it is. Nobody cares right now. And there's plenty of time to, if he's reelected to kind of tell that story. It was much easier for us, as you know, to do that in year seven and eight than it was, of course, in year four, because nobody wants to hear it at that point in time.
David Axelrod
00:34:33
Thing about history is that it's generally more accurate in the retelling than the than in the moment.
Jen Psaki
00:34:38
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:34:39
This isn't about history. It's about where the country is right now and how you link up to people's experience.
Jen Psaki
00:34:46
And their emotions.
David Axelrod
00:34:47
And their emotions.
Jen Psaki
00:34:49
Their emotions. Yes. I it is like no. First of all, nobody cares what the GDP is. It's important. But like nobody cares, right? It's just doesn't impact people's everyday lives. So some of these data points are just not. Yeah they're not nor nor is a big fact sheet on the IRA. The IRA is good, but like it's nobody's, this is not how people are voting. They're voting on like, is that guy going to help me or is the other guy going to help me?
David Axelrod
00:35:16
They also don't remember what the IRA.
Jen Psaki
00:35:19
Correct.
David Axelrod
00:35:20
Most of them think it's a retirement account.
Jen Psaki
00:35:20
Terrible name.
David Axelrod
00:35:20
You talk in the book about jargon.
Jen Psaki
00:35:24
Oh my God.
David Axelrod
00:35:26
And how folks in Washington get all wrapped up in jargon.
Jen Psaki
00:35:30
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:35:31
And he he he has a tendency to do that. Everybody's strength is their weakness. I actually think it's a strength that he's been in Washington all these years. It's the reason that he gets legislative stuff done, because he understands that process. He understands how to deal with foreign leaders. He understands all that stuff. But the flip side of it is jargon getting too caught up in the bubble. You know, on that Afghanistan story, you tell a very, what I thought was a very poignant story, which is that he went to Dover after the bodies of those 13 service people who were killed at the Abbey Gate in Afghanistan during those final days. And he he went to comfort the families. First of all, like I said, this was in the news today. There were negative stories, because he was people said he looked at his watch at some point. Anyone who knows Joe Biden knows that. I covered campaign events in the last election when people would line up after a town hall like it was Lourdes, because they wanted to talk to him and share their sense of loss. And and he would stand there and talk to every single person, and not because of anything other than. And he'd give them his cell phone if they wanted to. I mean, the man's sense of empathy is indisputable. But the thing that I found poignant was the fact that. The story was published, maybe as part of the same story, that said people, he was referencing his son's death, and they thought he was talking too much about his son. You had to call him and tell him the story was coming.
Jen Psaki
00:37:16
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:37:17
Talk about that, because it sounded like I think he was hurt, you know that?
Jen Psaki
00:37:22
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:37:23
That he was trying to help. But talk about that.
Jen Psaki
00:37:26
'Yeah. I mean, you know, I think this was a story about the day he met, as you said, the parents of people, of men and women who had lost their lives during that attack on Abbey Gate. Some of whom may have supported him and some of whom did not, which isn't a relevant point. It doesn't matter. At, the story is is also about how what he did, which he often does when he's comforting people who have lost people, and this is one of his superpowers, is being there and empathetic and really understanding the pain. He's been through much, too much loss himself. Is he often does talk about his experience with losing his son and losing his wife, his first wife, and his daughter many, many years ago because he thinks that's a connector for people. And it is for some. It isn't for others. Right? I mean, people deal with loss in however they're going to deal with loss. And there's no way to define that as somebody who's trying to help them. But the story is also about how, you know, Jill, Doctor Biden asked me when I talked to them about the job to make sure I was always honest with them. And I really thought about it in that moment, because it's difficult to tell any, any president or CEO or anyone that a bad story is coming. And this one was very personal. And it required me calling. It was like a Saturday. And just saying, this story is coming, and the story largely revolves around the reaction of these family members who are understandably reeling from the deaths of their loved ones. And they didn't. You you talking about your son was not well received. They felt it was self-involved. And that's, the story is going to reflect that. And it's going to be them saying that. And it doesn't matter if objectively it's like, well, he was trying to help them and this is what he thought. That's how those people felt. And that's what the important part of it is. They were the loved ones. They're the family members. That was their experience they had. So, you know, that was a story, a part about feedback and giving it to important people, but also part about how you can't define how people digest information you're delivering to them also. Right. It's it's. They define it. This is why like your audience and really being able to read your audience and adapt accordingly is part of communicating. It's not just speaking at people, it's listening to them and adapting accordingly.
David Axelrod
00:39:48
The thing that struck me was his reaction, which was, and I think this is, you know, I've experienced this in a different context. But his feeling, he just wanted to let them know that you'll survive, you know.
Jen Psaki
00:40:02
You'll survive.
David Axelrod
00:40:03
Maybe they didn't want to hear that in that moment. Maybe. But he was you. You described him as being very quiet on the line, and, you didn't know he was still on the line. And then he said quietly, I was, I thought, I was just trying to help, you know. I thought that was a very human moment.
Jen Psaki
00:40:19
Yeah. And and kind of a little heartbreaking for, you know, because, you know, and you've had, anyone who's worked for anybody. You have these moments where it's like you're sort of in their personal bubble, not because you're pushing yourself into it, but because by necessity of whatever's happening, you're there, and you sort of see their humanity. And that was a moment where I certainly saw his. And I think his reaction was quite telling. It tells you who he is, but it also tells you that it's so difficult to navigate grief and also empathy and also being a public person who's just sometimes even just trying to do good.
David Axelrod
00:41:04
Yeah. I also think, this is also probably true that he he works his own therapy. You know, I mean, it's important for him.
Jen Psaki
00:41:12
He's still grieving. He's still grieving.
David Axelrod
00:41:15
Still grieving.
Jen Psaki
00:41:16
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:41:18
'We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. You know, there's some interesting anecdotes in your book about your dealings with Fox News. You had these famous exchanges with Peter Doocy, and then you told an interesting story about Brett Baier. You and Peter Doocy from Fox used to, he used to ask challenging and sometimes obnoxious and sometimes ill-informed questions. And then you had to be the stoic character that you played and deal with it. Talk about that, how you deal with that, but also about what your relationship with him was in private.
Jen Psaki
00:42:12
First, I, you know, I say in the book that like one of the questions people often asked me is, how much do you hate Peter Doocy? And the answer is not at all, which surprises people.
David Axelrod
00:42:20
But the question itself speaks to the times.
Jen Psaki
00:42:23
Speaks to the time. I mean, you know, I can't imagine what it's like to work at Fox News. It feels like a challenging. And I disagree with all sorts of things they do and say, a number of people there. But what's interesting about. One, one calling on him every day was purposeful. Or whoever was in that seat, because this was part of trying to deliver on taking the temperature down and not, you know, ignoring them or pretending like they aren't a news organization, all the things. There are a lot of people who watch Fox News. There's certainly disinformation that's shared on there. There are also a lot of Democrats who watch Fox News too, or independents and others. It was important to call on them. But my engagement with him in the briefing room, one, it was sometimes, often predictable. As you well know, there's like four boxes in the press secretary's office, and you watch cable news just to consume what's going on and what people are consuming. If they were doing a revolving thing of like migrants at the border, migrants at the border, you knew that that's what they were going to ask you in the briefing room. So you just prepare what your argument is and what the administration is doing. It doesn't mean you're convincing everybody, but you're equipping people, hopefully, with some information they can use, right?
David Axelrod
00:43:33
Yeah, it's actually a useful exercise.
Jen Psaki
00:43:35
It can be useful exercise. The more difficult questions, as you well know, were often from like, if I, if it was a day where kind of Iran was a huge issue and I saw David Sanger in there, I was like, oh shit, this is.
David Axelrod
00:43:47
David Sanger, the national security.
Jen Psaki
00:43:49
'Right? Or, you know, because it's like, he's going to ask like a very in-depth, smart question that's probably impossible to answer. Not because I don't know the answer, because I can't talk about in here, you know. So, you know, that was. But when Peter would come see me and get clarification on things or, and I always found him to be professional in the sense that he did follow up on things. He did ask questions. He didn't, he didn't typically run a story without asking us for comment. I mean, those are basically responsible tactics of any journalist, right? It's complicated, because the other layer of that, which speaks to kind of our ecosystem right now, is that if we would have a particularly tough exchange, people who supported Biden's point of view would say, like, she got him, you know. And people who supported, who were opponents would be like, he crushed her. And that tells you a lot about how people consume things online.
David Axelrod
00:44:42
I want to get back to the Brett Baier thing, but before I do, it does raise the, you know, the whole MSNBC versus Fox thing. Where if you're at CNN, you kind of see that sometimes you're sort of watching that. You feel like you're kind of a spectator in that thing. How do you. Because I know you, and I know, I know you. You're a thoughtful, nuanced thinker. How do you deal with that? I mean, the idea that sort of MSNBC is a response to Fox. I know you guys are fact based. That's.
Jen Psaki
00:45:17
Well, that's a big differentiator.
David Axelrod
00:45:18
Yeah. It is. Yes yes yes, yes. No, it is a very big one. But like, I have friends who watch who won't watch anything but MSNBC and who are very high bound in their thinking. And, you know, they basically hate the world outside of MSNBC, who they think are stupid and ignorant and racist and so on. How do you travel that world?
Jen Psaki
00:45:44
I mean, one, I have a lot of Republicans on my show, which everyone doesn't do, but I think it's important, because it's part of the conversation. I do have a bar. I don't have anyone who doesn't think Joe Biden won the election in 2020 or who participated in insurrection, which doesn't feel like.
David Axelrod
00:45:59
That still leaves you 30% of the Republicans.
Jen Psaki
00:46:02
It leaves me 30%. I've had a number of them on the show. And I do think that's part of it. Like my bar, I always say this to the, which like, you know, you know. You work with like this amazing group of creative, smart, brilliant producers who make everything better and smarter. It's like my bar is not would I have, like, a drink with this person. My bar is like, what, are they engaging and adding something to the debate and the conversation? So I've done that. You know, the fact piece I think is actually pretty important. And some of it is also calling out what exactly is happening in terms of what we need to worry about and what we don't need to worry about. So I know that's like a mantra out there, Fox. I don't see it that way on a daily basis.
David Axelrod
00:46:44
I mean, but I don't want to in any way suggest that MSNBC operates in the same way, but it's how it's received in the, you know, we are shoved into our silos in this world, and too often we regard everyone who lives outside that silo as not just someone we have different points of view with or different experiences, but as threatening, as menacing, as evil. And I.
Jen Psaki
00:47:11
I would say that there are things to be called out. That this is the thing, like in the moment we're living through, that I do think that, like, both sides journalism is tricky in this moment, because there are some things that don't warrant both sides. But I do think that there are people I mean, I've had Chris Sununu, Chris Christie, John Bolton, I've had a ton of people who, a lot of them are critical of Trump. So I will note that. That is true. But about democracy and about the threat he poses to that. But I, I think it's like you, you're judged by what you do, essentially. Right. And I do think that there are, because there isn't a pressure to be anything other than what I believe in, what I am, that is also kind of a relief in this time we're living in, too.
David Axelrod
00:47:57
Yes, I certainly can see that. So, you know, just this, I think says a lot about you and maybe something about him. I. But you were in papers that were released from the Obama administration.
Jen Psaki
00:48:11
Oh, yes.
David Axelrod
00:48:12
You referred, I think, to Brett Baier as a lunatic or something. And, that got published, and you wrote him.
Jen Psaki
00:48:19
Yeah, I thought about, I mean, you've met my mother a million times. I thought, what would my mother say when she sees this email? And it was like, she would be very mad at me. Right. So I did email him and apologized and basically said, you don't know me, but this is not typically how I interact with people. And he could have not replied easily, right? He could have said thanks, which is basically like, screw you. I don't know. You know, or he could have said, screw you. I mean, all of those things would have been justified to some degree. He didn't even. He asked me if I wanted to go to lunch. We went to lunch. We talked about our families. You know, it doesn't it doesn't mean I mean, I there are there are times where I see something he's reporting on and I disagree with it. But I also remember that. It's not about that. I, he handled that with like tremendous grace. Didn't have to. It was generous how he handled that situation. And that's always a lesson, right. It's a lesson to me, too, in terms of when people attack me, happens on a regular, but also when people make mistakes, people who I manage or people who work on teams that I work with. Like, ultimately the buck stops with you sometimes, but also people make mistakes or are critical and we can find a bridge back. I'm typically open to that, you know, and an experience like that is something that sticks in my mind.
David Axelrod
00:49:37
I thought that was such a admirable thing on both your parts. And again, it doesn't it doesn't mean that you shouldn't challenge this, particularly if facts are wrong. You shouldn't challenge him on the substance of it.
Jen Psaki
00:49:51
Yeah. And I think of sometimes like, I didn't know him, but people always talk about Senator Kennedy as somebody who would, like, go to the floor and absolutely eviscerate the like point of view that he disagreed with. Right. But then he'd like, find ways to be collegial. And some people think that's gross in the world we're living in and some of the things people stand for. And there are limits to that. But I also do think there could be more of that.
David Axelrod
00:50:15
Yeah, no, John McCain used to tell the stories about having these titanic battles with Kennedy on the Senate floor, and then they'd go out and have a drink afterwards.
Jen Psaki
00:50:25
Yeah. And some people will say, well, that's kind of gross. Well, I don't know. I mean, like, it doesn't mean. My point is, it doesn't mean putting your values and your morals aside. You argue for them vociforously, right? But then you don't have to like, attack the like, you know, the family of someone. It's like, you know, because there's, there's lines, is what I'm saying.
David Axelrod
00:50:44
Well, this goes back to the, and I had this discussion with Nancy Pelosi and others recently. But, you know, the beginning, the end of the 80s, the beginning of the 90s, when Gingrich became the leader of the Republicans and then Speaker of the House, I mean, he really preached this notion that these are not just opponents, these are enemies. These are, and you need to think of them that way. And, you know, of course, social media encourages that kind of thinking. The social media platforms and their whole profit model depends on anger, fear, resentment, conspiracy theories and so on. I do think that's a big threat to our democracy. And, we need to push back on that. So that story was really meaningful to me. I just want to ask you about two other things. I was so impressed when you went over to the State Department, because you weren't a foreign policy maven?
Jen Psaki
00:51:41
No. I slept with some books about Syria and my bed with the hopes like the osmosis would get into my brain. That's not how it works.
David Axelrod
00:51:47
Yeah, but you did. But, you know, you talk about the few mistakes you made over there, but you did very well over there. It's one of the reasons why you continuex to rise in the government and in these communications jobs. But how hard was that?
Jen Psaki
00:52:02
Extremely. I mean, I think this is this is like not a secret sauce piece of advice I give people, but like, I work my ass off, still, right? I worked my ass off there and at the White House. I work really, really hard. And that, when I went there, I knew that the stakes were pretty high of me, for the country, for myself. Right. Of screwing up. If I screwed up, you know, hurts your career and hurts the country, hurts the State Department, it's the country. So it's an incentive to work really hard. But it was difficult for a couple of reasons. One, I had to learn a whole set of policies. It is doable and possible thing. The second is, I had to prove to the people in the State Department that I could do it. And I think when I came in there, I was, you know, in my early 30s, I followed someone, Tory Nuland, who was extremely well respected, who had been the former ambassador to NATO, who had worked for Dick Cheney, who had a lot more experience and foreign policy grift to to her, you know, like life to her. And I had to prove that to them that I valued what they did. I valued their roles. I valued their contributions. I valued the Foreign Service. And I did. And it took time. It takes time. And it took time and and some days where I knew people maybe were doubting me. But, it was it was probably one of the hardest transitions and jobs I've ever had and also probably one of my favorites because, you know, not just the challenge of it, but diplomacy is so interesting and so multilayered, and that press corps there is so substantive and smart and policy driven. It was a real, I mean, it was a real, I loved that job. I didn't even want to leave. I didn't want to leave the job. It was great.
David Axelrod
00:53:47
You must be looking at what's going on in Gaza through those eyes. You know, our politics doesn't really leave room for nuance. I know I got into it with, with my friend Scott Jennings the other night on CNN, because he was attacking Biden for abandoning Israel and, so on, and just to, to please student protesters. And I told him, you know, it just may be. The first of all, Biden warned the Israelis from the beginning to think about how they reacted to this. Secondly, like I'm the son of a Jewish refugee, I feel tremendous kinship with Israel. And I was devastated by what happened October 7th. Doesn't mean I can't weep for a starving child in Gaza. And the idea that Joe Biden somehow was simply acting on an the politics of the moment, I thought, but, you know, we live in a very cynical.
Jen Psaki
00:54:46
I know it's.
David Axelrod
00:54:47
Environment.
Jen Psaki
00:54:48
'It's so it's so true. And this is an issue, as you all know, it's it's hard to talk about in a 30-second soundbite. It really is for a range of reasons. And, you know, I said the other last week, I think when I was on Colbert that he maybe should have used this leverage earlier, and how people heard that was like I was making a political judgment. And I was like, no, no, the politics of this, it's a little bit unknown in this moment. I mean, there's no question that there is like strong points of view among young people, among a range of populations in the country. I don't know what that we know the political impact quite yet. Right. But I wasn't making a political judgment there. I was talking about in the room as a diplomatic tool of leverage. Right. And I said that in the sense of like, these are the discussions is, you know well know, that happened in the In the Situation Room. Very hard to be kind of a backseat driver on it. But like you're deciding, okay. What what are the paces of leverage? First, the president's going to have a conversation with Netanyahu where he says, I'm going to go out and say this publicly if you don't change your behavior, right. They don't change the behavior. Then he's going to go out and say it publicly. Then he's actually going to do it. This is how diplomacy has worked for decades. Longer than that. Eisenhower, Reagan, so many people throughout history. The other layer of this is that Netanyahu. And I was working for John Kerry during the failed Middle East peace negotiations, but I sat in a lot of these meetings, and was around him quite a bit. He is a person who is focused in part on his own political survival right now.
David Axelrod
00:56:17
Well, not just political.
Jen Psaki
00:56:19
'Legal survival, right? Survival in general. Now, many things can be true at the same time. And they are. The events on October 7th were horrific. There are families who are still reeling. Some of them I've talked to who have their their children, like their babies who are in their 20s, still held as hostages. There are tens of thousands of people who have died in Gaza. The threat in Rafah is even more significant. There's anti-Semitism that is rampant across our country and people feel passionately on campuses. It's not all monolithic. All the campus protests, all of these things are true at the same time. But in my view, this is a question of the best thing Joe Biden can do is like, help move, or they can move toward a cease fire. But can they do it? You're not all powerful in the United States, either. And that's the thing about it, is that Netanyahu.
David Axelrod
00:57:07
But people but people expect you to be.
Jen Psaki
00:57:10
To be. Yes.
David Axelrod
00:57:11
Yes. It's it's it's really, really a difficult situation. And no one is privy to the conversations they've been having for months.
Jen Psaki
00:57:19
Yes. True.
David Axelrod
00:57:20
And, you know, it was the Israelis who leaked the information about the pause in weaponry while they were trying to work the issue through. So. Anyway, let's just I what I want to leave on is humor. You talk about the value of humor, and you've got a great sense of humor.
Jen Psaki
00:57:40
Thank you.
David Axelrod
00:57:40
'I always loved the old Lincoln story when he was debating someone who accused him of being two faced, and he said, if I had two faces, do you think I'd be wearing this one? And, yeah, the the ability to inject humor, self-effacing humor, humor in a situation. It's just you do it well. It's really important in communication, especially in times like these.
Jen Psaki
00:58:04
'Yes. No question. And it's not appropriate in every moment. I've learned that the hard way. But but it is important because self-effacing humor, I think, is important and important for politicians, too. You know, I think important for Joe Biden. President Obama had these moments, too, of self-effacing humor that I think are good. And it makes you feel, it makes you appear human to people. And humor can also be useful in kind of breaking through. I mean, I think the role of comedians, especially those who are kind of politically engaged in a moment like this, is also interesting, because they can break through culturally in a way that people who are on CNN or MSNBC, or wherever they may be, may not be able to. Right. And that's where I think some, you kind of sometimes see, like the Jon Stewarts and the Stephen Colbert and others who can kind of call out moments in a way that breaks through culturally that others can't. But yeah, I think humor is probably undervalued. And it's hard to, it's also hard to do, because it's figuring out how to do it in a balanced way, especially if you're a politician or a public figure. It doesn't always work.
David Axelrod
00:59:10
Yeah, did you see what,Jimmy Kimmel said the other night, when there were stories that Trump was unhappy about reports that he was sleeping in the courtroom, and Jimmy Kimmel said they called it fake snooze.
Jen Psaki
00:59:20
That's.
David Axelrod
00:59:22
I mean, maybe that was a dad joke, but I loved it.
Jen Psaki
00:59:24
It was a dad joke, but I laughed at it. I'm audience for dad jokes, I suppose. I guess that's true. I've always loved your jokes. So that means I definitely love dad jokes.
David Axelrod
00:59:34
By definition, yes. Listen, anyone who reads this book, but anyone who listens to you and watches your show, who's watched you during your career, know that you're a great, great communicator. But I'm here to say you're an even better person.
Jen Psaki
00:59:48
Thank you.
David Axelrod
00:59:49
And, I love ya, and I wish you great success. And we're lucky that you're out there in the public square.
Jen Psaki
00:59:56
Right back at you. All the things that are good, most of them I learned from you. And anytime I screwed up, it wasn't from you, it was from someone else.
David Axelrod
01:00:03
I'm not sure about the last part, but Jen Psaki, thanks so much. The book is, "Say More: Lessons From Work, the White House and The World." And for all you communicators out there and even those who aren't, it's a great read, so please pick it up.
Jen Psaki
01:00:18
Thank you, Axe.
Outro
01:00:23
Thank you for listening to The Axe Files, brought to you by the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio. The executive producer of the show is Miriam Finder Annenberg. The show is also produced by Saralena Barry, Jeff Fox, and Hannah Grace McDonald. And special thanks to our partners at CNN, including Steve Lickteig and Haley Thomas. For more programing from the IOP, visit politics dot uChicago dot edu.
