'It's so strange when and how grief hits you. I worked all weekend in Los Angeles and flew back to New York late Sunday so I could be home when my kids woke up Monday morning. I was in the car from the airport. It was 2 a.m., but suddenly I was on the balcony in my mom's apartment, replaying the last seconds in my brother's life. It's like I was trapped, suspended in this obliterating sadness. It swallowed me. The violence of it. The horror of it. I felt like I might pass out, but I just sat there with tears dripping from my eyes, unable to move. I'm not sure how long exactly I did this in the dark, in the backseat of the car. Finally, I forced myself to breathe deeply. He's gone, I thought. All of them are gone. I'm alone. This is All There Is. I think I'm going to stop this podcast in a week or two. I think I need to take a break from it for a bit. I've already done an interview for next week's episode, and the following week I want to finish the season with your voices, with your calls. I ended last season with your messages, and I think that's how this season should end as well. We've set up a new phone line for you to call. If you'd like to leave a message in our voicemailbox. Let me know if there's something that you've learned in your grief that might help others. I can't promise we'll use your message, but I do promise I'll listen to all the messages, though it may take me some time. Feel free to leave your name and phone number, but you don't have to. The number to call is (917) 727-6818. That's (917) 727-6818. And I'll say that again in the end of the podcast. We'll be right back with my guest today, a remarkable woman I really want you to hear from. Her name is Shamayim "Mama Shu" Harris.

Welcome back. My guest today is Shamayim Harris. Everyone calls her Mama Shu. She spent 27 years working as an administrator in schools in Michigan. She's a community activist, a minister and a mom. In 2007, her two year old son, Jacobi, was killed when he was hit by a car while crossing the street with his ten year old brother, Chinyelu. In her grief, Mama Shu decided to try and transform what was a rundown block in Highland Park, an enclave of Detroit, into a vibrant community. She named it Avalon Village. In 2021, her other son, Chinyelu, was murdered. He was 23 years old. I sat down with Mama Shu last week.

Thank you so much for doing this. How did you get the name Mama Shu?

'So, in my community, we are dressed as Mama or Baba, which means father, and it's basically an African, it's like a handle, just like Mr. or Ms. So it's also like a form of respect. The Shu is S-H-U, is the Egyptian god of the air. So my name is Shamayim "Mama Shu" Harris.

Your son Jacobi was killed when he was just two years old. What was he like?

He was two years, one month and six days old, to be exact. And he was very, very smart. I believe he was just a prodigy. He was a DJ. He would have the microphone rapping and everything, and he would work that turntable, and.

That's amazing.

Oh, yes, it was. The buttons and everything, but he was just a bold little something while he was here. Just a special little being. He was and is.

What happened on that day?

Chinyelu and Jacobi were crossing the street. They were holding hands and they stepped right off of the curb. And then there was a car that came barreling down the street pretty fast and hit Jacobi. And then he kind of landed over by the streetlight. And then my daughter, Kafi. And she was 12. She ran outside and she picked Jacobi up, and she was saying Jacobi, Jacobi. He ended up being brain damaged. Didn't get that much oxygen to his brain. He was connected to the tubes and everything. But basically he just had him holding on and we knew what the inevitable was going to be. And then what we decided to do was wait until my other daughter, Aziza, got back to Detroit so that she can give him a hug and everything. And so, Kafi, she still had her clothes, was still like had blood on him and everything. But she sat there in the chair, waited until Aziza got there and it was, like, overnight. And...

She was 12 years old.

She was 12 years old. And she sat there and they were so, so close. They were so close. She just, she stayed there. She stayed right there like a big sister and waited on other big sister to come so she could basically say goodbye.

What was that night like for you?

'That night was one of the roughest, nights. I really didn't think I was going to last overnight. Literally, I thought I just wouldn't be able to make it. You know, I thought that maybe my heart would stop. I don't know. I couldn't function no more. Wouldn't be able to eat. I didn't know what was going to happen. Because, you know, Anderson, sometimes me and my friends, we would hear about things that would happen to other families and their children actually died. And we would just have stories like, oh my God, I would not be able to take it if my kid would die. Oh my God, I would just want to crawl into the grave with them. Just, those are the kind of things that we were saying before. And so, it actually happened to me. And it was even, the pain was worse later on. It didn't get better. Like, the first year is just horrible, just a realization that my kid got killed. Like, I actually lost my two-year-old son. He was actually hit by a car holding my other son's hand. And yeah, it just got worse. And what I mean by getting worse, it seems like that first year, it's like almost the first of everything, you know, the first birthday, the first holidays, these first things that you just notice that somebody's missing.

I heard you say something, and I found it really moving. You said I chose to transform my pain into power, my grief into glory, my loss into love. When I heard that, I was like, wow.

Yeah, because one thing, it does end up being a choice. You know, sometimes we can be in in grief so long, but at some point we do have to keep it moving because those loved ones have kept it moving. They movin'.

How do you do that?

Man, I'm telling you, every single thing that I do right now is grief. This is grief. It just looks beautiful. And that's the way that I look at it.

So this is grieving. You are still grieving?

Oh, yes. Every single moment. Every single moment. Every single moment. There is not a moment that I don't think about every detail of what happened.

I've heard you say in the past, Jacobi gives me courage, he just keeps me going. A lot of the things we do around children are because of him. Can you talk about that? After Jacobi's death, what, then, led you to try to change your community.

When I was a little girl, my neighborhood was beautiful. I would talk to the elders and go to the store, and my school was just right around the corner and everything that you needed and wanted, it was right there in the neighborhood, and I wanted to recreate that.

Highland Park at one time was one of the best neighborhoods in Michigan.

It was. It was very beautiful, the city of trees, it just was so beautiful. And, it took a hit with Chrysler moving out and our schools started getting closed down, and I wanted it to rise like the phoenix and be beautiful again, a place that is really, really highly desired to live in. And I just started on this block and I remember just envisioning it. I didn't want to leave the hood. A lot of people leave. They want to go to maybe somewhere safer or somewhere that has a better school system and, you know, just all of these things that they feel that are better. And I'm like, you know what? I'm staying right on this block, and I'm just going to compact everything that I want on this block and the people want on this block.

You've acquired 45 lots of land. Is that right?

Yep. Six structures and the rest is land. It took about eight years to actually clean it up. And so I'm building a village. We have a park called Jacobi Ra Park. It has his picture. His headstone is actually there. I didn't put it in the cemetery. I had them deliver it here. It's a beautiful space. It's real sunshiny, just like him.

There have been weddings there. There have been celebrations in that park.

Yes, yes, I also do, memorials and funerals in the park. The first funeral I had here actually was my bonus son. I had a stepson. His name was Pili. He got killed when he was 34 years old. He was murdered May the 13th, 2015.

Oh my gosh.

And I did his funeral here in the park. But the homework house was the very first structure that I wanted to finish. And it took about five years and some change to build.

Actually, homework house is a place kids can go after school, do their homework. I know there's a music studio there.

Yup, they have all kinds of sessions. Art class. We also have a washing machine and dryer because working in a school system, I saw a lot of children coming in, their clothes were dirty. I have underwear and socks and all of those things. Uniform shirts. Everything is all nice and crispy. We have school supplies and they get a meal and everything. So we have the STEM lab. I was able to get a grant for our, science, technology, engineering and mathematics. We built one out of a shipping container. But there's a lot of children, unfortunately, who have lost their siblings, their brothers and their sisters and uncles through mostly murder, mostly crimes like that. And so we try to have support for them. We have support groups here at the homework house.

I read that the one street light on the street was repossessed. Is that even allowed?

'So, Anderson, they took all of the street lights in Highland Park, all of the residential areas, the street lights got repossessed back in 2011. So they actually came and picked up the poles and actually took them. It was about maybe 1,200, and they took them out of all of the side streets. So right now, Avalon Village and another area, we did a fundraiser. We're the only, very first re-lit block since the lights were repossessed.

So you're the only one who has light?

'We have six solar street lights. Five of them have Wi-Fi capability so the kids could pull up, do their homework. People can sit in a park and chill and and sit in their cars if they need to get on the internet.

How much has all this cost so far?

Oh my goodness. Oh, Lord. You know, I would probably say maybe close to a million and a half. And this is over time. We raised $250,000 on our very first Kickstarter that we did. So that was like the first big chunk of money that I was able to initiate and start the village. So I just try to find funding through grants and different things like that to build what it is that we need. I sold fish sandwiches and stuff, too, Anderson. Yup. Sure did. We had bake sales, fish sandwiches to buy the land. You know, some of the land was 300 bucks for the lots and everything. So my goal is to have a nice, beautiful arch that says Welcome to Avalon Village. Like when you pull up in those beautiful gated communities, how it looks with all the beautiful shops and to have coffee and tea and sit and read a book in the park and the concerts and different things like that. So we're doing all of that. We're doing all of that.

Mama Shu's only surviving son, Chinyelu, who was ten years old when that speeding car ripped his little brother Jacobi's hand from his, worked security in Avalon Village. On January 26th, 2021, he was shot to death.

Every detail of what happened to my son, Chinyelu, everything is just still, everything is so vivid. It's just three years, 1/26/21 is when he became an ancestor. And, uh...

What happened to him?

Chinyelu. His name is Chinyelu Geb Kahero. So he got murdered. Somebody shot him five times. He was right across the street. He was sitting in his truck and he was doing security. I was inside of the house and I was on Zoom, and I'll never forget it. I heard some gunshots and I flung open the front door and I started screaming Chinyelu's name. I was hollering. I said, Chin, chin chin! I must have called him about eight, nine, ten times. And, actually, I saw who, killed my son. And I saw them run. Chinyelu, he died in our neighbor,'s right across the alley, died in their doorway. He knocked on the door, banged on their door, and he laid out and he died right there. I remember straddling Chinyelu and he was bleeding and he was gone at that point. And I remember just looking at him and I just whispered and, I just remember saying, Chin, this is it. This is the day. This is the day you are really gone. And I just whispered some things in his ear. And I just got up off of him when the ambulance came and everything. And I saw them working on him and everything. But I already knew he was gone, you know. But they had to do that. I already knew what it was. Yeah, that right there is devastating. It still is. That is still just very, very fresh.

And you said to him, this is the day?

Yeah. Yeah. Because, so what I understand about humans is I just feel that everybody comes here with their own separate journey and the loved ones in the family, we never know when they decide, hey, the jig is up for me. I've done what I've done here on the planet. This is it. My son Jacobi, his was up in two years, one month and six days old. And so, I understood that with Chin, too. I'm like, wow, 23? Like, this is the detaching moment from him and us and just being here. So that's just that's the way that I felt about it. And now Jacobi and Chinyelu, because they come from me and I'm their mother. They still live inside of me. They're still part of me. And so a lot of the things that I manifest, I manifest in their memory because they're still living inside of me. I can't detach from that part. But physically it's happened. So I still feel that I raise my children in heaven. So a lot of the beautiful things that we've done up the park in my son's name, I built shrines for my sons. We have a basketball court that we call my three sons, and it has their faces on the basketball court. I had a beautiful mural, so those are like my three boys. But, Chinyelu's shrine is very beautiful. We got some of the, some of his friends, they helped to build it. And it's a space where they hang out. So we have, these beautiful, lovely spaces here for the boys. And in their memory.

I've heard you say that he became an ancestor. And I'm wondering what that means to you.

So basically the ancestors for me, I believe they're not here physically but all of their memories, a lot of their ways, a lot of things that they do, we can still honor them and I still honor them whenever we have ceremonies or we have parties or we have something, we want everybody to be there. All the family members. I do something called libations. I have my cup and I pour, water, and we just call out all of the folks who have, become ancestors, the folks who have died in our families, and we just bring up them and we bring up their energies and we want them present. And then when they get here, we say they are here, and then we go ahead and party almost. Anderson, like when you see guys and they may pour some wine and say, this is for the homies, that's what we do. That's for the homies and for the family members that, reside in the spiritual world.

Jacobi died in 2007?

Yes.

On his birthday, you, do you still have a big party? I had heard that you have a big, like, reggae concert.

'Ah yeah, we do. Yes. We party up a storm, okay? Anderson, we have the biggest gig. I'm telling you, it's called, Reggae in the Hood. Yes, I get so excited about it because it's just... So anyway, so Jacobi was born on Marcus Garvey's birthday, August the 17th. And so we have this big old reggae concert, festival, and we have about four reggae bands. And guess what? We party on Chin's birthday, too. And also, when he became an ancestor. So for my boys, they have two celebrations. They have one for their birth dates, and they have one when they become an ancestor. So on September the 23rd, we have our fall equinox bonfire, and we also celebrate Jacobi crossing over into the spiritual world. I'm a minister since 2001, and there's a passage in the Bible and it talks about enduring sadness. Psalms 35. It says, weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning. And for me, the joy, for me, Anderson, comes in the morning. But not in the morning, like you wake up. It comes in the m-o-u-r-n-i-n-g. The actual morning. And that's what I've been able to find with my boys and with my loved ones. I've been able to find that piece right there so that I can keep going and keep it moving here on earth. And so the things that I create, it's mourning. That's why I said it's just, this is grief, but it's it's like the beautiful side of grief. And there is a beautiful side of it.

I think to be able to find joy in it would be an extraordinary thing.

So yeah, for me to create Jacobi Ra Park brought me healing, brought me joy, brought me happiness. And that's what I show and I talk to a lot of mothers who have lost their sons, and I show them how they can actually honor their children and create shrines and do beautiful artworks. And what did your son like? And just to show them how to put things together. So I try to find ways to help them, but I do tell them that it's it gets more bearable as you go on, I do say that. But I am very truthful about it in saying that this is just some raw shit you're going to feel for a while. You know, for a while. I think that one of my, one of the greatest things here is just to enjoy things right now, how they are right now, how beautiful they are right now, and not to attach yourself so tightly.

Not to attach yourself so tightly to what?

I had to understand and detach from the physicalness of them to learn that piece, and know that I can still deal with those boys on a higher level. And that's what I do right now. To be able to still be their mother, still understand and be able to commune with their spirits. I know that they're gone. I know that they're dead. I know that they're not here. I know that they're ancestors, but I also know that they're still here because they're part of me, and I'm still able to work with those boys, and I do, and I feel them. I know when they're around. I know when they have their hand in certain things that happen. I just feel it.

And you still have a relationship with them?

Yes. I have a full relationship with them. Full relationship.

Do you talk to them?

I talk to them of being a parent because I'm, I feel in my head that I'm still a parent. I'm still a parent, but I'm raising these boys in the heavens, so I'm still connected. That's how I feel. And I talk to them, Hey, I'm doing this. And it's just certain things that happen that go through and I'm like, Oh, okay, that wasn't nothing but Chin, you know. That wasn't nothing but Chin that did this, you know. Oh, that was Jacobi right there. I always know which one, too, because I know their energies.

They each have their own distinctive signature?

'Oh my goodness. Whenever it's time for rah-rah or for me to, like, stand up, it's, that's Chinyelu, like, Ma, you're about to do this and whoop whoop whoop! That was his (laughs) that's how he would talk, You go out there, do the whoop-di-doo. I was like, Yes, I am. (laughs) Yeah, that was Chinyelu, boy.

The person who was driving the car that killed Jacobi, what happened to that person?

So, Jacobi, his killer, he actually was a neighbor, Anderson, lived on our same street. He got 3 to 15 years. He ended up doing three, but he was held accountable. And basically what happened was he left the scene.

He left the scene knowing he had hit your child?

Yes. And that's why he got 3 to 15 years. The people who killed Chinyelu, from what I understand, one of them is deceased and the other one is in jail right now. He's in for another crime. So I'm trying to work with the authorities. I'm telling them I saw what happened. I saw the people running away. I saw the men. I can identify the young man and everything. I don't know, it's just really, really slow. And it's just dragging. And that right there for me, Anderson, it adds to the grief.

Justice is important for you?

Oh, yes, it is. Because I got justice with Jacobi. But justice for Chinyelu was really important to me because it just is, and I think that he should be held accountable. So for me, that part right there is going to be solved and it's going to be taken care of.

Is there something you've learned in your grief that would help others who are listening in right now in their grief?

I would say to strive to stay connected even though the physical bond has been severed because those souls have something else to do. Still, just know that they're part of you. It may not seem like it right then and there, but it is a beautiful thing later on, and it can be a beautiful thing later on.

That notion that you can still have a relationship with somebody who's died is something I learned in the first season of this podcast from people I was talking to, and it was a revelation to me. And it's extraordinary and it has helped me tremendously, that idea. It sort of opened up my mind to thinking about grief in a different way.

And sometimes it may even help to even just like, Daddy, daddy, I'm here, right here. This is feeling this kind of way. Or Ma, it's all right to say it out loud and stuff. That's what I do sometimes, like, Chin! Sometimes, I'm so, I do. Like, when you got to say their name. Say it three times, watch. Daddy, what should I, you know, I'm going through this. It's all right to say it like that. I have, like, conversations just like that. I do. I talk to him just like he's here right now when I'm picking out gym shoes, for real.

You need his advice?

Oh, my goodness, Chin, is these sweet or not? You should...I do, and I'm gonna tell you I've been, I've become a gym shoe head since him because I'm telling you, he loved Jordans, all kinds of stuff. Whenever I say I'm like, yeah, Chin would like these, I'm getting these boys. You should see me, and I just (laughs.) And I get them. So now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm 58 and got this whole gym shoe closet. And it's just, but it's just so much fun because that's why I stay in the moment. And when Jacobi says things is usually over my right shoulder. I'm gonna tell you this one quick thing right quick. When we were raising money initially for building the village and we did this Kickstarter, my team was like $50,000. Let's raise $50,000. I'm like $50,000? That ain't gonna get us nowhere. That ain't nothing but a roof. And I remember hearing Jacobi saying, Big, big, big. That's all I heard over my shoulder. I'm like, okay. I said, no, we're going to go $241,900, $241,900. That's the amount that's our, goal. And we ended up raising $243,691 in 30 days.

Wow.

And I was just so, so happy. But when he said Go big, I was like, Yeah, yeah, go big. And now that's the way I think, too. You know what? I'm not going to small change nothing, Anderson. I'm going for it. And Jacobi have made me go for it, for real. He said, don't play around with this, Ma big, big. Yeah. So whenever I'm thinking I'm small in myself or what it is that I'm doing and everything, I'm like, no, uh uh, big. And he was just a little short thing, you know? But yes, I remember and I'd just hear him speaking and, boy, just loud and clear. Yup. So that's what keeps me going, too.

That's grief to glory.

Yes. That's grief to glory.

Mama Shu, thank you so much.

You're welcome, Anderson. Thank you. And peace and love to you and your heart.

'Mama Shu continues to raise money to expand and improve Avalon Village. If you'd like to contribute to her dream or find out more information, you can go to her website, TheAvalonVillage.org, or follow her on Instagram @TheAvalonVillage. And a reminder, we've set up a new phone line for you to call. If you would like to leave a message in our voice mailbox. Let me know if there's something you've learned in your grief that might help others. I can't promise we'll use your message, but I do promise I'll listen to all of the messages. Feel free to leave your name and phone number, but you don't have to. The number to call is (917) 727-6818. That's (917) 727-6818. I'll be back next week with a new episode of All There Is. And remember, wherever you are in your grief, you're not alone. All there is is a production of CNN Audio. The show is produced by Grace Walker and Dan Bloom. Our senior producers are Haley Thomas and Felicia Patinkin. Dan Dzula is our technical director and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Audio. Support from Charlie Moore, Kerry Rubin, Shimrit Sheetrit, Ronnie Bettis, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, Jon Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andres, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Katie Hinman.