Will a Ceasefire Deal Stop the Rafah Incursion? - Tug of War - Podcast on CNN Audio

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Tug of War

CNN reporters take us on-the-ground in Israel to document the escalating conflict and what it means for the rest of the world.

A frayed rope is about to split in two

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Will a Ceasefire Deal Stop the Rafah Incursion?
Tug of War
May 1, 2024

Hamas is considering a new framework for a hostage release and ceasefire proposal put forward by Egypt. It comes amid fears that Israel will launch a ground offensive into Rafah whether or not a deal is reached. In this episode, CNN's Becky Anderson tells us about the parameters and examines a longshot push to normalize relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Episode Transcript
David Rind
00:00:00
The southern Gaza city of Rafah is supposed to be a safe zone, but that is not saying much, if anything at all. Case in point, hospital officials say an airstrike killed at least 22 people there early Monday morning. All were members of the same family.
Woman
00:00:21
(Arabic)
David Rind
00:00:24
The third video showed a group of people overcome with emotion, caressing lifeless bodies. A woman shouts. My whole family has perished.
Man
00:00:35
(Arabic)
David Rind
00:00:40
A man holds the body of a one year old baby up to the camera. This is who they are targeting, he says. This is the safe Rafah. They talk about. The IDF says it struck targets in an area terrorists were operating in. CNN can't verify that. But again, this is the state of Rafah right now. Imagine if ground forces move in. That military operation is the backdrop for negotiations this week over a hostage release and ceasefire deal. And some are asking, is this the last chance to stop it?
Becky Anderson
00:01:22
They framed it the following way. Is Rafa a strategic target or is it a bargaining chip?
David Rind
00:01:29
From CNN. This is Tug of War. I'm David Rind.
David Rind
00:01:37
Becky Anderson is a CNN international anchor and the host of Connect the World. She's in Abu Dhabi. Becky, as we sit here on Tuesday, what is the latest deal on the table?
Becky Anderson
00:01:47
'Well, after months of deadlock and I've been covering this for months, as you know. There is some talk that we could be close to an agreement with both sides, which would be a major step towards ending this war. So what have we got? We've got Hamas. Considering what is a framework proposal that, as I understand it, Israel helped craft but is not fully agreed to. That calls for a pause in the fighting for something like 4 to 6 weeks, and the release of up to 33 hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. That's phase one. Phase two is where I would suggest that we've seen something new, something new from Israel, and something that, at least in principle, Hamas may be prepared to really consider. And this is a call for restoring sustainable calm. Now, I sort of do that in inverted commas, because this is this is a period of time, for the release of all the remaining civilian hostages serving soldiers and the bodies of hostages. This is important, this wording, the the restoration or restoring of sustainable calm, that is language as I understand it, according to sources that I've spoken to who are familiar with this, that the US first proposed back in February that was accepted by the Israeli technical team in Doha when it was taken back to Tel Aviv. It was knocked back by the prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, because effectively, this is this is a call for a semi-permanent ceasefire in all but name.
David Rind
00:03:47
I was going to say it sounds a lot like a ceasefire, period of sustained calm.
Becky Anderson
00:03:50
A period of sustained calm. Absolutely. And this is something that Hamas has been calling for. They have been their red lines have been the return of Palestinians to the north, the free movement of Palestinians back to the north of Gaza, and a permanent ceasefire. Now, call it what you will, a longer term sustained period of calm or ceasefire. We are at the moment, as I understand it, talking about something like a year.
David Rind
00:04:22
A year. Wow.
Becky Anderson
00:04:23
Yeah. And that is the reason why the US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, has described this proposal as extraordinarily generous on the part of the Israelis.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken
00:04:36
And in this moment, the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a cease fire is Hamas. They have to decide and they have to decide quickly.
Becky Anderson
00:04:46
And he said this in Riyadh on Monday, and I was there, we were both at the World Economic Forum special meeting in Riyadh.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken
00:04:56
I'm hopeful that they will make the right decision, and we can have a fundamental change in the in the dynamic.
Becky Anderson
00:05:03
So as things stand, as you and I speak, that proposal is being negotiated, between a team from Hamas, Qatar and Egypt in Cairo. No evidence yet that the Israelis are joining. There has been talk that they will join if they see sufficient movement. But perhaps let's move on to what happened in the last couple of hours here Tuesday as we speak, because we have been told by an Israeli source that the only chance to stop an offensive in Rafah, which is hanging over all of these negotiations at present. The only chance of stopping that Israeli military offensive in Rafah is a deal that, though, is not official policy.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
00:05:45
(Hebrew)
Becky Anderson
00:05:53
And officially Benjamin Netanyahu has today told hostage families, quote, Israel will enter Rafah with or without a deal. And the big question here is, you know, as you collapse these two issues is Rafah. And there was a commentator who framed this, an Israeli commentator who framed this, today from Haaretz, which I thought was interesting. That's a more left wing sort of media outlet outlet in in Israel. They framed it the following way. Is Rafah a strategic target or is it a bargaining chip? And that's a really big question at this point.
David Rind
00:06:35
Like we've heard from Netanyahu, that the military needs to go into Rafa to root out Hamas, finally. But there's a thought that it could be just kind of a way to get this deal over the line. Is that what you're saying?
Becky Anderson
00:06:48
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. But if we sort of, you know, just step back for a moment and consider where we are at seven months into this, Benjamin Netanyahu, who's been absolutely insistent from the outset of the offensive in Gaza that he it has two clear goals, the complete dismantling of Hamas. And the return of the hostages, the hostage families. I think there's a there's a sense that the return of the hostages is a sort of, you know, is a secondary goal here under an enormous amount of pressure from the United States who have said and again, Anthony Blinken reiterated this in Riyadh on Monday. You know, the states have said. You will not get Washington's blessing until you come up with a clear plan to protect civilians. Should you go into Rafa and Anthony Blinken said in Riyadh that to date, they have not seen that plan.
David Rind
00:07:48
Is it that pressure then, that has kind of allowed Israel to back off some of these key demands, like the movement from Palestinians to the north or this period of sustained calm, because that, like you said, feels new and a much bigger step than we've seen in recent weeks.
Becky Anderson
00:08:04
It does, doesn't it? Again, there's been some sort of movement of people, but people are moving back to where they came from and finding there's nothing to go back to. So, you know, people are sort of returning to Rafah as a result of that. And therein lies this, you know, this awful situation that, you know, frankly, it seems nobody but you know, those running, you know, the the Israel operation want to see which is a military offensive on Rafah, which could see, you know, upwards of a million people subject to an assault, the likes of which we we have no idea what what the impact will be. You know, the other really important stuff that I sort of gleaned while I was in Riyadh this week was, was Antony Blinken was there to talk to regional stakeholders, Arab foreign ministers, about what happens next.
David Rind
00:09:06
More with Becky in just a bit.
David Rind
00:09:18
Welcome back to Tug of War and my conversation with CNN's Becky Anderson. Let's talk a little bit about what happens next, because I've been hearing a lot in the past few weeks about this push for normalization between Saudi Arabia, one of the major players in the region, and Israel. So can you explain like the backstory here?
Becky Anderson
00:09:37
So through the Biden administration's lens, I will quote to you what? Antony Blinken said in Riyadh the single biggest rebuke to Hamas. And he said Iran would be for Israel to have normalized relations with the region. Both Iran and Hamas have no interest in a two state solution. Why did he talk about the two state solution? Well, Saudi Arabia, who has said they are close to normalizing relations with Israel. Antony Blinken has said we are getting closer to normalizing relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia. But standing in the way of that as far as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is concerned, is what they describe as an irreversible path to a two state solution and irreversible path to a Palestinian horizon. And at this stage, we have heard no appetite from Benjamin Netanyahu to change his position. On a two state solution.
David Rind
00:10:49
So that would seem to make this kind of a dead issue, right? Even if Saudi Arabia and the US really do want this to happen.
Becky Anderson
00:10:56
But it's so it's if, you know, we're talking about a, you know, whether or not Rafah is a bargaining chip. At this point, it certainly is a huge bargaining chip for a prime minister who has. Set his heart and his political legacy on normalizing relations with Arab states.
Alex Marquardt
00:11:19
Almost three decades since Israel last signed a peace deal with an Arab neighbor. Today it signed diplomatic agreements with two.
President Donald Trump
00:11:27
These agreements will serve as the foundation for a comprehensive peace across the entire region.
Becky Anderson
00:11:33
Joining the Abraham Accords back in 2020 normalize relations with Bahrain, the UAE, Morocco and Sudan, but very specifically that Bahrain and the UAE. And I've heard talk around this region that should the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia normalize relations, that will open the door to other countries to do.
David Rind
00:11:52
It'd be like a domino effect.
Becky Anderson
00:11:53
It would be a domino effect.
Alex Marquardt
00:11:55
It is, without question, a historic turning point for the political landscape of the Middle East, one that will see the establishment of normalized ties for Israel with more of the Arab world, where it has long been seen as an enemy. Ties that will now include embassies, direct travel security partnerships and increased business relations.
Becky Anderson
00:12:15
'Which everybody you know, those who support, at least in principle, normalized relations will say is, you know, a terrifically good idea for the region. The region needs de-escalation, it needs collaboration, it needs investment. You know, you've seen this huge push for more regional integration, both in the Kingdom and in the UAE, for example, that these these economic visions that are being absolutely executed on as we speak will be jeopardized should this conflict spill over, and should this region continue to be in this cycle of of instability and probably behind the scenes, you hear a lot of talk that this could be a really positive move around the region. Is it going to go down well with the Arab street as it is known? Is it going to go down well in Saudi with with many who support the Palestinian cause, you know, is he going to go down well around this region? Probably not. But in principle, these are long term strategic decisions that these countries are taking, you know, which they see. Through the lens of their economic interests as well as their foreign policy. So there were some very big decisions to be made at present. The first is finding a solution to what is going on in Gaza. You know, and at the heart of that is a ceasefire, the release of the hostages. And in exchange for, for Palestinian prisoners, a solution, an agreement from both sides on that at this stage could unlock this further chain of events, which, as we suggested at the beginning of this, could be a major step towards not just ending this conflict, but, you know, a Palestinian horizon going forward and wider around this region, a more integrated and a more peaceful and secure Middle East.
David Rind
00:14:22
Yeah, many steps, like you say. And again, with the two state solution we've heard even just today, former President Trump kind of casting doubt on the possibility of that from the US end. And so what happens in November will have a say in that as well. Becky, good to chat with you.
Becky Anderson
00:14:37
It's always good to chat with you. Thank you so much.
David Rind
00:14:48
Tug of War is a production of CNN audio. This episode was produced by Paola Ortiz and me, David Rind. Our senior producer is Haley Thomas. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Licktieg is the executive producer of CNN audio. We get support from Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora Leni Steinhart, Jamis Andrest, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Caroline Patterson, Flora Charner Holly Raisa, Alireza Hajihosseini, Zeena Saifi, and Katie Hinman. We'll be back on Friday. I'll talk to you then.