And now from the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio, the Axe Files, with your host, David Axelrod.

'One of the joys of doing this podcast for the past nine years has been the chance to meet and introduce you to interesting, inspiring people we may not have known. I had heard about Cyrus Habib a few years ago. He was the up and coming lieutenant governor of Washington, an Iranian-American who lost his sight to a rare cancer as a child. Habib was a brilliant, productive office holder. The next Obama, folks would tell me. And then, disillusioned with the celebrity aspects of politics, he dropped out to join the Jesuits and put himself on a decade long path to ordination. I sat down with Cyrus Habib recently about that head turning decision and his life today. It's a conversation I think you should hear. Cyrus Habib. It's. I've been so looking forward to this conversation. I remember you from another life when you were being heralded as the next Barack Obama and the next big thing in politics, and now you're on a completely different course, which we will get to. But such a pleasure to see you.

Thank you. Likewise. And President Obama did play such an inspirational role for me, which we'll discuss. And so, it's an honor to, well, it's an honor to have met him, briefly in politics, but a real pleasure to be able to get to know you. And now to be able to say, talk about the things.

Thank you. I remember when he endorsed you.

That was, that was amazing. I still have the recording of the robocall.

That was in the lieutenant, when you ran for lieutenant governor.

Yeah, it was.

We'll talk about all of that. But let's let's go back to the beginning. And your family from Iran. Talk about your folks and the life they led and the transformation in their lives that brought them to this country.

'Sure. My parents were both born in Tehran to secular Muslim families. And my paternal grandfather was a self-made businessman in the marble industry. And, my mom came from a Turkish Iranian family, and her father was an engineer, and my mom was one of two daughters. My grandparents only had two kids. They were both girls. And it was very important for them that their daughters be independently educated and able to, to be independent. And so she went on to study political science at the University of Tehran in the late 70s.

Let me interrupt you for a second. I also read that she attended Catholic schools as a.

As a girl.

A girl. Yeah. But you describe them as secular Muslim families. So tell me about that.

'Yeah. So, you know, at that time, it was not uncommon, particularly if you were upper middle or upper class, to send your kids to study in a, you know, in a Western school, to learn English, to learn French. So my mom learned both of those. She went to a what we would call middle school and high school at a school run by French nuns. And she developed at that point this, this real fondness, this real attraction to the life of these nuns and to Catholicism and to the liturgical experience of Catholicism. I guess one of the rules or policies of this school was that they could not try in any way to, to, to convert, you know, non-Catholics to the faith, which, you know, which makes all the sense in the world if you have this power dynamic over young people. But my mom just had this attraction. She actually went back while she was in college and taught at that school. That's how much she liked these sisters. And funnily enough, way before my vocation to the Jesuits, she had told me this story that she went to one of the sisters at one point when she was like 11 or 12 and said, when I grow up, I want to be a nun like you. And they're like, well, there's just this little problem, you know, we got a few.

Got a few steps to take.

Yeah. So yeah. So she was very influenced by that. And. Yeah. So then she, she went on to study at the University of Tehran. Now my dad, who's since, he passed away, he was five years older than she was. They were childhood friends. And my mom and my dad's sister were were best friends. So he was like the cool older brother for my mom. And he came to the US in 1970, went and studied at the University of Washington, studied engineering, undergrad and graduate school, then working for, while working for an American company, moved back to Tehran for a couple years. And that's when my parents started dating when she was in college.

And this is, this was an in the era of the Shah. This was and, Iran was a different place.

Very much so.

And, although there obviously were tensions even then between the secular and, and devout elements of the Muslim community there. What was the environment like? What did your parents, how did your parents describe and did they see coming what would come in 1979?

'They were pretty sheltered from the discontent. So their experience of it, as is the case for so many Iranian Americans, was that, you know, they had a joyful, cosmopolitan upbringing. My maternal grandparents were landlords also, too. They had a they had a couple rental properties, and one of them was, one of, one of their tenants was this American couple. And my mom really got to know this couple and practiced her English with them. And so it was it was a very cosmopolitan environment, obviously very pro-Western. And, you know, historians and, and, political scientists continue to debate what the causes were of, you know, the unrest that was building. I mean, the Shah was a tremendous violator of human rights. So but I would say most people in my parents class, were, were unaware or, or were largely sheltered from or maybe apathetic about what was going on. They were not in love with the Shah. They were not in that kind of crowd. But they were they were not particularly political.

There was an element of corruption as well. And then there was what we've seen play out over time throughout that region and the world, a kind of a rebellion against modernity and afronts to Orthodoxy. But all of this boiled over in '79, and your folks were on the, the wrong side in terms of, of what developed there. I mean, they were, in a sense, emblematic of the Iran that the ayatollah and his forces were seeking to overturn.

Yeah. I mean, my dad was a hippie, in the early 70s in Seattle. I mean, my love of, you know, James Taylor and Cat Stevens and Van Morrison and all of that comes from my dad. I mean, that was the era that was was most influential, you know, on him, his coming of age was in the US. And so when he was, you know, working for a U.S. company in Iran as the unrest began and as the Islamic faction became ascendant, that was just absolutely not what he was there for at all. And he had the good fortune of working for this company that could get him a green card in the U.S.. Now, my mom's situation was a little more complicated because she was in the middle of her studies. And like I said, my grandfather really believed that his daughters needed to be able to be independent. And particularly, he said, if you're going to move to the U.S. with your fiance and you're going to get married, you need to have your college degree. But the universities, the University of Tehran where my mom was studying, was like the center, a hotbed, absolutely. And so she has just crazy stories about, you know, the kind of the Islamic faction taking over classrooms and forcing, you know, headscarves while she was a student there. But she she only had one semester left. So she finished her studies and then moved actually to France for about a year while, because this was also during the hostage crisis. So even so, even though my dad had a green card, but it was not easy to get her a visa to come to join him.

Had the Shah been toppled by the time she left?

Yeah, the Shah had at that point been toppled. And Iran was in this kind of chaotic period before Khomeini had consolidated power. And, you know, it was I mean, it was but it was during the hostage crisis.

So she came and join your dad in the US. They settled in Washington.

They actually settled in Maryland. They settled in Maryland, in the Baltimore area. That's where, this company was based, where my dad was working, and I was born in Baltimore. They moved eight years later, seven, eight years later. After I became blind and we'll, you know so we'll talk about that.

Well, this is where I'm going. Yeah. So talk about that. You're an only child.

I'm an only child. And.

And then when you were one.

Yeah. Shortly after I was born, I was diagnosed with a rare childhood eye cancer called retinoblastoma. And it appeared in the left eye at first. And I was treated for it, but by the time I was two, they, you know, the treatments were not working and the retina had to be removed because it was it was, you know, filled with, with tumor. And so I, I lost my eyesight in that eye at that age. And then there was this period of kind of watchful waiting to see, is it going to come back? This cancer can appear in one eye or it can appear in both eyes. And so they were just watching the, the right eye and then I. I even received preventative radiation during those years. But unfortunately, it did come back in the right eye. And, you know, after chemotherapy, radiation, etc., I became completely blind.

I can't imagine what this is like for a child to go to go through. What are your memories of it, and what were you thinking as you went through it? Were you terrified? Were you?

It's. This is where I just have such, you know, profound admiration for my parents because, you know, they were in their 20s, living thousands of miles away from their support system, from their country of, of origin. And, and, you know, my mom was 23 when I was born. 23 and, and that same year to be told that your son has cancer and may well go blind and then to, to to have that happen by the time she was 31, let's say. But but my admiration comes from the fact that, as she put it later to me, we were so afraid. But we we tried not to let our fear become your fear. And it's so true, because my childhood, I mean, when I think about my childhood growing up, it was playing on big wheels with other kids. You know, it was listening, religiously to Casey Kasem's top 40. It was all the things.

Classically American kid experiences.

Totally.

Now. So you were sighted for the first years of your life.

Yeah.

And then you lost your vision. So you must have memories of being able to see.

I do, and that was one of the reasons why they did want me to have these treatments was to, at the very least, extend my eyesight, because those years are so formative and, you know, you're you're just building up an archive. And the difference between going blind at age five and at age eight is huge. I would, you know, I would imagine, I've only lived one life, but I, I often joke that, you know, I was born in '81, I became blind in '89. So all eight years that I could see took place within the 1980s. So all my visual memories are still from the 80s, and everyone still looks like Cyndi Lauper and Boy George. I told that joke. I mean, it's true, but I told that, I was at a, university commencement. I was a commencement speaker at Central Washington University a few years ago, and you could hear where the parents were sitting because the kids had no idea who Cyndi Lauper and Boy George are. So we'll find out in the comment section what your demographic is.

Well, maybe we'll put references there so people can look them up. A lot of people going to Wikipedia. Actually, my, my I would guess my demo might know the answer to that, but yeah.

So I was I mean, I was truly blessed to have a number. I mean, you know, obviously I don't know what an iPhone visually looks like. But I wouldn't think that's significant. I mean, I remember what my parents looked like. I remember cityscapes and, and, you know, I think they tried to give me experiences, during those years, both to, to distract me from the pain of, of, of all the medical treatments, but also yet to enrich me in that way.

Well, first of all, let me just say, you know, I have a child who just started having profound epilepsy when she was seven months old and she was our first child. We were in our 20s. We were still trying to figure out how to be married. And all of a sudden this profound challenge came and, really defined our lives. So I really feel I feel for your folks. That's a terrifying feeling about how you navigate this. And then you add the dimension that you said about being so far from home. But I just want to ask you one more question about this, which is what is what was it like to you? I asked whether you were frightened. What was it like for you to be able to see and then not be able to see? I mean, the moment when you realize when the reality of having lost your sight totally came and that you would never see again, do you recall what your feelings were? I would think that would be so hard.

What I. What I think back on my own feelings about it. For one thing, I lost my eyesight incrementally, in the in the right eye. So, you know, the cancer was taking my eyesight. And, you know, when you're at that age, especially if you're an only child and you don't have a point of compassion, like an like an older sibling. The. Life is life, you know. So there were there were hard moments. I mean, I had to wear baseball caps because I was bald from chemo and kids would take the hat off. And why are you bald? And, you know, those kind of stories. What I remember very clearly, because we moved to to the Seattle area right after I became blind. We'd had so many negative experiences there, because not only had what happened to me happened, but my dad also had cancer during that time. So we moved to the Seattle area, and so I went to this new school, and I'm meeting these kids who, you know, hadn't kind of experienced me being able to see. And so, you know, they would, I mean, I wear sunglasses to protect my eyes and also to signal that I'm blind. And kids would, you know, try to take the glasses off and kids would, I can't tell you how many times kids thought it was fun or interesting to say, how many fingers am I holding up? And.

Kids can be cruel.

Yeah. they didn't you know, they didn't know. You know they, it's, it's, they didn't know, they didn't understand. And but what, what I remember is telling them, oh this is just temporary. I'm, this is only for like a year or two and it's, my parents had not said that to me. But somewhere I developed this defense mechanism which was to, to kind of project to the world that this is not an identity. You know, I think that's now that I can analyze it a little more. I think what I was trying to say is this is not actually core to me. This is a, a passing thing. And over time, and I think I internalized that. And then but, but, you know, over time, I, I recognized that it may be the case that, you know, and technology and science and research continue apace, but, but not anytime soon will I regain my eyesight, and I think it was in those kind of preteen years that I came to that realization.

And yet you seem to sort of do. You did not let this limit you. From what I've read, your mother was a great influence in that, as well. You made sure that you could play in the school playground and, you know, and then I read that over the course of your life, you, you know, you waterski and karate and, you know, summiting Mount Kilimanjaro. Talk about that, about sort of not giving in.

'Yeah. Well, you know, my parents again, they just somehow they just somehow got it. You know, because it's a tricky balance on one, one side, you have to, to, to be able to advocate for accommodations for your child. But on the other hand, you have to push back against the tendency that well-meaning people have to over protect, because that over protection can often take the form of exclusion. And, you know, you mentioned the playground, and this is probably the story I told the most often when I was in public life, which was that, you know, I was a third grader and like any third grader, wanted to play on the playground. And, you know, they were not, the the teachers and principal were not thrilled about my doing that. And, in part because they knew I'd just become blind. But also, I think knowing that my mom by this point was a litigator. So.

She went to law school,.

She went to law school, she went to law school while I was growing up and getting treatment. And actually, you know, she was just.

Pretty remarkable in and of itself.

I remember her sitting by my bed, by my hospital bed, highlighting cases in her big case books. And she would shuttle. There was a time when she had to shuttle back and forth between my hospital room and my dad's. I mean, she's an incredible woman. So when I went and told her and told my parents, this is what's happening at school with the with, at recess time, she went to the school the next day to the principal's office. And importantly, she took me with her to the principal's office so I could learn how to advocate for myself. And she said to the principal, you know, I'm going to take my son to your playground over the weekend and teach him how to get around the jungle gym, the slides and and swing set and everything. And he's going to learn it differently, but he's going to learn his way around just as well as any other kid. And then she said, it may happen that he might slip and fall, and he may even slip and fall and break his arm. And then she said, but I can I can fix a broken arm. I can never fix a broken spirit. And I share that story as often as I can because it became like a North Star for us. It was the moment when, at a very young age, I learned the importance of my own inclusion and that it mattered that she had my back. And so now it became not just, okay, how do I survive, but also how do I thrive? That it's not just what happens in the classroom, but all facets of life that are meaningful and important. And there would be more battles, you know, on into middle school and high school. There was a teacher who, you know, we, in my high school we had a model UN club. And, you know, it was all extracurricular was after school. And this teacher said, well, you know, it's not, it's not required for school. So, you know, it'd be it'd be hard for him. How are we going to get him the materials? How is he going to get around? And, you know, my mom was like, well, if it's not required, then maybe nobody needs to do model UN. That was just her her way. And I learned everything about advocacy from my mom.

We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. You went, off to Columbia University. You went as a Truman Scholar. And part of that Truman scholarship implies potential for public leadership. Which makes me feel like you were already thinking about that. Is that right? Was that already in your head that this is something maybe you'd like to do?

I ran for student council, like, I think three times in high school and lost every single time.

You needed a good consultant.

Then I went, I know, I know, right, I couldn't afford one. Then I went to Columbia and ran once for class vice president, once for class president. Lost both times. And so I did, you know. So yeah, I had this kind of social instinct, but also, obviously not a great political instinct, but a desire to be, you know, in the room where it happens. I think what thinking about the Truman, which was, which I received in my junior year, what had happened in that time was 9/11. So, you know, I came in, I was studying English literature the summer between sophomore and junior year, which was the summer of 2001. I interned for Senator Maria Cantwell and, which, you know, began all.

Of the from your home state.

State of Washington. Which began a friendship that continues to this day. And so interned for her. And that was her first year in the Senate. It was also the first year in the Senate for the junior senator from New York.

Yes, I am aware of her.

That's right. So.

Hillary Clinton.

Hillary Clinton. So so I.

You started there right that week, right?

Right. So I asked I asked Maria, you know, Senator, you know, I'm going back to New York. I really like what I did in your office. Is there any way that you'd be willing to make an introduction to her, you know, staff. So I began an internship in the constituent office in Manhattan for Hillary Clinton. And the first my first day of work was like September 8th, or 7thor something like that. And so what, you know, what was going to be a pretty humdrum internship, you know, answering phones, doing, doing, getting coffee, all that kind of stuff became a year.

Amazing. A lot of loss, a lot of pain, lot ministering to people's needs.

Totally. Providing being there with people in this moment of crisis, helping displaced, you know, people from lower Manhattan, businesses and so on. It was incredible.

Can I ask you a question about this? I was active in New York at the time. I was involved in a mayoral race for a guy named Freddie Ferre, who was running for mayor and probably would have won the primary, which happened on September 11th, and it would have been historic because he was Hispanic. There had never been a Hispanic mayor of New York. There's still hasn't been. But we ultimately ended up losing, in part because people's attitudes changed after that attack and there was more resistance to kind of the other. And I'm wondering whether you sensed a change in the. Did people react to you differently? Obviously, this was, by the way, Cyrus was a name that you adopted. That wasn't your birth name.

It's my middle name. So when I, when I went to, you know, very Catholic, you know, Maryland schools, every other kid had a middle name. It's not the tradition in, in Persian culture to have a middle name. So I came home and and complained, why should I not have a middle name? And my parents said, you can have a middle name, but we already gave you a name. So this time you have to choose your name. And, perhaps showing the hubris that, that, that, that I've struggled with at times. I had heard Cyrus the Great. And so I chose that name.

Well, it could have been worse. You could have called yourself Cyrus the better.

Well, my my my mom would sometimes tell me I should have chosen Ivan the Terrible. So.

But but the real question I was asking was, did did did people, did you sense in people a different reaction to you after 9/ 11?

I never experienced overt or I can't even, you know, put my finger on an a moment of kind of subtle prejudice. What I will say happened was that because of activism on campus, and as we record this, there is, of course, lots of activism going on on Columbia's campus. But, you know, as that was going on in the, in the, in the, in the year that followed 9/11 around the, and the Patriot Act. And there was also the Israel Palestine thing was, there was a second intifada at that time, and then leading into the to the war in Iraq. As all of that happened, I for the first time became aware of being Middle Eastern American. It was not something that I had really thought of, in part, maybe because the, the, the blindness thing was, was kind of such a, a big differentiator that, you know, in fact, I, I, I would, I've noticed during that time, I would tell people that when I would fly, whatever added scrutiny I would get for being Iranian American I think it was offset by the kind of sense that a person with a disability is harmless. So two different types of prejudice would, would maybe kind of end up being a little net neutral. I developed the sense of being Middle Eastern and ended up actually majoring double majoring both in English and then also in Middle Eastern studies. So I, I started I began studying the history and politics and religions of the Middle East. But really as a result of 9/11.

You, you, you got a Rhodes Scholarship and went to Oxford. And while you were there, you converted to Catholicism. Tell me about that decision and why why that was important to you.

Yeah. So I'd. So as I said, I grew up in a, in a what I call a kind of generically monotheistic family. You know, if pushed we, you know, we would have said we're Muslim because we're not anything else. But even growing up, you know, we would go to with our, with our friends who were Catholic, to to Christmas and Easter mass. We when I was very sick, my parents took me at the at the suggestion of their friends to the shrine of Mother Elizabeth Ann Seton in Maryland, a Catholic saint. And so there was this kind of openness, I think, to or a respect or a kind of affinity for Catholicism, really, that my mom had, but, you know, and a and a kind of cultural connection to Islam just because Iran is, you know, so heavily Muslim. But no, we didn't practice any religion. And so and then in college, I would say, you know, I was a student of kind of contemporary, a postmodern critical theory and was was probably an agnostic, would be the best way to say it. And, and when I went to Oxford, this, this funny thing happened. It was 20 years ago now, a Rhodes classmate of mine invited me one, one Sunday to go to mass with him. And if you knew me, I was a hard working and good student. But I was also a big partier in college. A lot of that had to do with my need to kind of project a certain image. Now I can realize that I had to do with projecting a certain image that would paper over the disability. So whether it was, you know, dating lots of women or, you know, trying different drugs and going out drinking all the time, I had that kind of that hard partying element, as well. So if somebody said, Cyrus is going to go to mass, I mean, no one would believe it. And so I said, what do I want to do? Why would I ever want to do that? And he said, well, you should just come. It's it's kind of, you know, it's this Dominican friary. You know, it's kind of medieval and creepy, I think, you know, and in Oxford medieval and creepy is like the coin of the realm, you know? So. So I went there just just out of the esthetic curiosity and. Look, I'm not going to tell you I went there and and, you know, had a Damascene moment and boom all of a sudden I believe. What I can tell you is I felt for the first time that I didn't have to perform. I could just be silent, which does not come naturally to me. And, you know, and so I was just there and I, I the beauty of it, the silence of it made me want to go back. And so I, I went back again and again. And then, you know, and the father, Timothy Radcliffe, who by listening to him preach, by reading scripture, not as a as a student, but actually with a kind of spiritual curiosity, I first developed a desire to believe, and, you know, which I think is often the way that it is, it's kind of like I feel this attraction, but I don't really know, and I don't totally understand and I don't really believe yet, but I want this in a way. And as time went on, I mean, it took three years before I was ready to become a Catholic. And that happened in 2007.

And then you went, off to, Yale Law School. Interestingly, your roommate was Ronan Farrow.

Yeah. His roommate was Cyrus Habib.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you guys would answer that question differently.

No, no, no, we like to joke with each other. He's still a friend to this day.

And then you went back to Washington to practice law. Did you go with the intent of running for office? Did you? Was that part of the plan?

This is where you come into the story.

All right. Sounds great.

So my best friend from at Oxford, from my Rhodes class, was Chesa Boudin and still one of my closest friends and.

Former prosecutor in San Francisco and, deposed by voters for a progressive approach to.

Reform.

Prosecution.

That's right. Yeah. So, and still one of my best friends and, you know. Chesa is from Chicago. And so in, in '04,we were in Oxford and he said, you know, this guy Barack Obama is running. This is before the speech at the convention. And he said, you know, he's running, he's a state senator. He's running for the U.S. Senate. I think he's the real deal, you know. But it was just, you know, at that time I was just, I said, there's no way someone's going to become a senator with the name Barack Obama. Like, it wasn't even the race thing for me. It was my my sense was just the name.

Yeah. hat's what a lot of people felt that way.

And so then, you know, so, so like, you know, like so many others, I saw the, the convention speech and, you know, wow. And then, you know, saw him speak a couple times at big events and, you know, in '08, it was. Actually the firm that I was working at, Perkins Coe that I went on to go work for, and, you know, you know, those folks. Bob Bauer is.

Very integral in our campaign. A great friend of mine. Yeah.

So. So I got to spend the summer doing a little bit of of legal work for him, you know, for the for the Obama campaign and for the, for the DNC in that summer. So I was just, so I mean, I was a true believer and I and and I was so excited and scared that what if this doesn't happen? But, you know, also exhilarated and, and all of that. And, and I would say to answer the question that you asked me, I was pretty skeptical about, you know, I mean, I had this love of politics, but the thought of my ever running, I thought, that'll never happen. When he won, it was like, okay, maybe this can happen. You know, if he can win and he can win like, like a, like a caucus in West Virginia or something like that, you know, maybe, maybe I can do this.

And I should point out, for all the aspiring candidates out there that Barack Obama lost a primary for the U.S. Congress four years before he got elected to the Senate, and he lost by 30 points. So, you never know. Your five losses were just a.

That's right, that's right. I got them out of the way. And then the other thing that happened was my mom ran for judge in 2008, a race she lost. She was subsequently appointed to the bench. But what I was home for the summer for part of the summer, I kind of would go around to these different, you know, Democratic Party, you know, committee meetings and, and different things with her. And, and I just kind of got the sense, you know, I could do this one day. I didn't know. It wasn't a. I didn't know when. But yeah, I went back. I practiced at Perkins Coe, you know, kind of the biggest law firm in the state, but and also, you know, as as as I mentioned, politically connected. But, you know, politics is all about timing. Also, this state representative kind of made it known that she wasn't going to run for reelection. And that was my shot to run for the state House of Representatives.

We talked about you navigating the barriers that blindness created for you in many, many different ways. What unique challenges were there for you as a candidate?

'The biggest logistical challenge that we had, because I wear sunglasses, we had to communicate in our paid media he's wearing sunglasses because he's blind, but at the same time, we had to communicate, that's okay. It's okay that he's blind. He can still do it, you know. But we knew that if the story, if you know, if people get to know me, that they they wouldn't hold it against me that I'm blind or certainly that I'm wearing sunglasses. But also, you know, we might get to that point where they say, wow, you know, this is impressive. And so, you know, he'll be impressive in the job. The other story is that later when I when I ran for lieutenant governor, now the challenge was okay. You know, my district where I'd been in the House and the Senate was a was a pretty well-educated Microsoft suburb. Now we're running statewide, much more diverse electorate, more conservative, as well in parts of the state. How do we do this on TV? What we did, and I think this is really credit to my consultant, he said, this is 2016. He said, you know, it's not about you being blind. It's about the fact that you can hear better. You can listen better. You know, and this is, you know, with Bernie's campaign and with Trump's campaign, he goes, so many people aren't feeling heard. So let's make that.

That's really a great insight.

You know, so the way we started this was, you know, I became blind. I can't remember the exact words, but something like I became blind due to cancer as a kid. And that taught me how to listen.

We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. 2012. You get elected to the state legislature and you are a really, really successful legislator there with a lot of interesting and and impactful legislation for people who are often forgotten and a lot on technology and using technology to help people and so on content. You get elected to the state Senate. Two years later, you become the Democratic whip in the state Senate. Again, really productive. And two years after that, you get elected lieutenant governor of the state. And you are. That's when everyone like in my world is saying, this dude is somebody, this guy is going to go somewhere in politics. And I think the general sense was that you were going to be governor of the state of Washington. And in the midst of this, you lay plans to secretly drop out of politics and devote yourself to the ministry to, you know, the work of of God, as it were. And you announce at some point I'm done, I'm joining with the Jesuits, and I'm going to work toward becoming a priest. I'm going to minister to people. That was a stunning, you know, in the world of politics. The idea that you've got a golden ticket to big things, and you lay it aside to do this often solitary work, but but much different work in which you're not in the buzz and everything. Explain that decision and how you came to it.

'Yeah, there's so many things that go into it, but the the pithy way that I now describe it, I finally decided I'd rather be happy than successful. So much of my life, my education and, and you know, awards and elections was was always about more and, you know, more more admiration, more more accolades, more status, more prestige. I kind of think of it as like, I'm in recovery as like a stat-aholic or status-holic or something like that, you know, because it was never, you know, I could never hit that high. You know, I kept wanting to, to, to run for something higher. And the system, the political system is, you know. One of the most pernicious phrases is rising star, and it's meant as a compliment. Right. But what it's saying is, you know, there is a firmament to which, you know, you should, you know, you know, you do aspire and you're you're doing a good job at reaching. But the rising part of rising star says you're not there yet. You know, you haven't done it yet.

And star has two meanings as well. I mean, yes, it's the filament and all of that. But it's also celebrity. When you're a star, you're a celebrity.

Yeah.

And that is seductive.

Yeah. I mean, people call. It's it's so fascinating to me. People will call even governors rising stars in politics, you know, or cabinet members rising stars in politics, because there's always, you know, until you get to president, there's always some other thing.

And so did you find yourself thinking at times, well, I could be president of the United States?

Truly, I did not have that particular aspiration. I think the highest my my imagination. And I just didn't I didn't have a desire for it. But maybe, you know, maybe if I'd been in the U.S. Senate, then when it was more realistic or closer, you know. But I, you know, I did I would say Secretary of State was, I was, I was, I was I've always been interested in foreign policy. You know, the U.S. Senate was, was always fascinating because that's where my experience was with Maria Cantwell. And, you know, kind of always had that imagination. You know, but it was always as soon as I would win something, sometimes, even before I won the election, I was always thinking, all right, I'm going to win this, and then I'm going to run. Like I said, nobody ever aspires to end their career as lieutenant governor, right? Like I'm going to be a lieutenant governor when I grow up.

There's a guy here who got elected state comptroller, and he said, no kid ever says, someday I want to be comptroller of Illinois, right?

Yeah. So it was, you know, it was an amazing job. I got the privilege of serving as the acting governor, you know, because because Governor Inslee ran for president, he was out of state. And so for like over six months, I was the acting governor of the state cumulatively, you know, served as president of the Senate. All those things were were wonderful. But my mind was focused on, okay, how do I get a convention speech? So what happened was my father passed away in 2016. I myself, though I wasn't public about it at the time, in 2018 discovered a tumor in my arm that I had to get treated. Cancerous tumor. That all got me thinking about questions of mortality. Questions of what am I living this life for? Am I going to be happy on my deathbed if I'm Secretary of State, if I'm U.S. Senator? What matters to me? And I would say more importantly, the question. So one is a question of happiness. The other thing is, am I living authentically? Am I living according to the the the, in my case, it's my Catholic faith? Am I living according to the values that I profess in the sense that, you know, I follow a guy who 2000 years ago said, here's what's important. You know, build up these kinds of treasures, not these kinds of treasures. So I would go to Mass on Sunday and listen to that and, you know, say amen to that. And then the rest of my week, I'm building up treasure right here on Earth that will not last for me. And that was not nourishing me and was not rewarding to me. But it was only, I think, because of the, you know, confronting my my father's passing and my own fears in the moment of diagnosis that I could then begin the discernment process of, okay, actually, this is not life giving to me right now.

That explains why you left. Explain your decision to do what you're doing and to join with the Jesuits. Which, extraordinary tradition, their history. But join with and commit yourself to what is a decade long path.

Yeah. To ordination.

To ordination? Yeah.

Yeah. So when my dad was diagnosed with cancer back in 2013, we were riding high. My mom had been appointed to the bench. I was a state representative. And and then we got this devastating news that my dad had stage four cancer. And I went to the pastor, my pastor at Saint James Cathedral in Seattle, father Mike Ryan, and asked him, how do I pray about this? All you know, of course I'm praying, please let let my dad be healed. But also, I don't know how to talk to God right now about this. And he recommended this book by James Martin, "The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything." Which is really a guide to Jesuit or Ignatian, named for Saint Ignatius, Ignatian spirituality. And in that book and in his other books, which I would go on to read, he he describes his life as a Jesuit, particularly his life in the formation process. And so in the back of my mind, somewhere deep, deep in this corner of my mind was this thought like that sounds like an amazing life. You know, what attracted me were, you know, the idea of living according to these vows, particularly the vow of poverty, living more simply, the the thought of living in community with with others, the thought of living kind of outside of and in some sense countercultural to this very commodified, market driven culture that we live in. And to dedicate myself to serving others more directly. The way I can describe it is it's kind of like if you go visit a city on vacation and then somewhere in your mind you think, I'd love to live there one day, but it's not realistic. You know, you don't make plans. You've got your whole life in wherever you actually do live. That's kind of what it was like for me. It was this fantasy like, look, that sounds like an amazing life. Well, fast forward to then this moment of kind of crisis, losing my father, my own medical challenge, and then all of a sudden, everything felt like it was on the table. And so I began the process of discernment. And what I can say now, having been a Jesuit for four years, is that I didn't even understand a fraction of the gift that this life would become for me.

First. What was your mother's reaction when you told her that you were going to take this path?

She was. Look, she's always been supportive. And so she said, look, I'll support you. I love you no matter what.

That doesn't sound like a totally.

But it was.

Enthusiastic endorsement.

No. It was. I think she was afraid because it felt so drastic. You know, I've been on this path. Everything has made sense. Brick on top of brick on top of brick. And now I'm saying, I'm just going to knock the whole thing over and to do this thing which, you know, you know, because we were not a Catholic family, we didn't know very many priests. We didn't know any Jesuits, you know, certainly at that, you know, in those early years. So it was the unknown, and, and I and also it meant that I would be traveling, not living near, near her. So obviously there's that personal element of it, too. I'm an only child.

What about the, what about the vow of celibacy?

Yeah, yeah, she you know, I asked her, are you going to be sad to not have any grandchildren? And and she said truly she. Because if, if you were to have kids, of course I would be thrilled. But she said, that is not something that I'm, I'm looking forward to in a particular way that now I will lose. I never felt a call to having children. I never felt a desire to have kids. And while, you know, I've been in love, but there was always, you know, there was. I never felt even the urgency around, you know, let's take it to the next level in the relationship. And I didn't know what that was about. You know, there, there, there could be psychological pieces to it having to do with, you know, having had childhood cancer myself. You know, that that's that's a possibility I, I've entertained for sure. And so what I can say about living the life now is that are there ways in which at times one can feel lonely, for sure. But much stronger than that for me is. And what makes this feel right for me is I love this way of living, which is to say that I live in a community, because your listeners may not know. You know, Jesuits always live in community. They may be communities as small as four guys or maybe as big as, you know, we're recording this here on the campus of Loyola University Chicago, and I think there are close to 70 Jesuits who live on this campus. The kind of mutual support and accountability that we provide one another. It's just it's just tremendous for me. It's a beautiful thing for me.

You were in public office at a time when the whole scandal relative to, you know, sexual assault.

Me too.

Yeah, yeah. But also that were involving priests and so on undermining certainly the image and of the church. How was that a concern for you? And is that is that still a concern for the church?

Of course. I mean, of course it was. You know, it was and is. I mean, I became a Catholic after Spotlight. So it was always, in my life as a Catholic, it's always been a public reality, a recognized reality. And during the time in which I was being vetted and considered to to become a Jesuit, during the application process, I was paying close attention to, you know, what is, you know, what does the church do in this regard? To make sure that the guys who come in are healthy and will live this life with with authenticity and, and with respect. And I was, you know, really, truly kind of reassured. That was a very reassuring process for me. But to me, what the, what the great crime that this is, what it's really all about more than anything else is about power, you know. As, as all this stuff, as, as, you know, Ronan's Harvey Weinstein's story, right? I mean, all of its power. And so I'm also very heartened by Pope Francis and the reforms that he has pushed for to make the priesthood. I keep coming back to this word more authentic, more what Jesus said, which is, you know, to serve others.

There is a struggle within the church between conservative elements of the church, some of them right here in the US.

Yeah.

And the. The reforms that Pope Francis has brought. Put your political hat on. How are. You must be watching that with some interest.

I do, but, you know, to be honest, I'm careful not to feed that side of my psyche. You know, in the sense that, you know, a big discernment for me is what aspects of my past life and experience do I feel called by God to hold on to and to put to use, to kind of build his kingdom, as we say, on Earth? And what pieces of it do I feel called to let go of? I wouldn't say I was, you know, the most partisan person, but, you know, you don't win three elections in five years without, you know, throwing some elbows. And so what I hear Pope Francis saying is let's not replicate what we find in the wider culture, which is, you know, shouting at each other in this kind of oppositional way. Let's listen to one another and let's actually begin with lived experience. And so that's where I, that's where I am.

That's where your head is.

That's where my head is. It does worry me, the degree to which people don't sometimes want to heed that invitation.

You're about to embark on a big mission as part of your journey. Talk about that.

'I am wrapping up the second stage of formation. As a Jesuit, the first stage is is a two year stage of of being a novice. I was in the novitiate in Culver City, California. I'm now finishing first studies, which is mostly philosophy studies, here in Chicago. And it looks as though I am being sent for the next stage, which is a working stage. It's actually not studying. It's active ministry for 2 or 3 years. I'm being sent to Nairobi, Kenya to work throughout sub-Saharan Africa on the Pope's ecological and economic agenda, to work on social justice issues, particularly around the intersection of poverty and climate change, which is so important to the pope, to the church, and to the Jesuits.

Yeah, and to Africa.

And so relevant in Africa where economic interests continue to exploit the land and the people, often in the same exact place. And so being able to, to, to not only research, but help to, to craft policy ideas that are driven by people's lived experience throughout Africa is so exciting for me. And as I said earlier, may help me to answer that question of what pieces of my legal and political and policy background can I can I put to use for the greater glory of God?

Just as we close Cyrus, you know, just last week I was talking to someone I know you know, Frank Bruni, formerly columnist for the New York Times. And he wrote a column about your decision to leave politics back in 2020. And now he's written a book called "The Age of Grievance." And you have found a more serene place, but you observe what's going on around you and the kind of raw nature of our politics today. What's your perspective as someone who now is in a different place about how we reknit community?

I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if I. Because we're as Jesuits, we're not trying to get away. We're not living a monastic life. We're not trying to get away from this messiness that you're describing. We're trying to to live in this messiness. But to bring, you know, Christ's gospel message and, you know. So, so let me go to him for a second and say, you know, he was not, Jesus was not someone who avoided controversy, nor was he a centrist. So I don't think. Now, if you're a centrist, you're centrist, and I and I can respect that. But I don't think that what's required is let's take the sum total of all positions, divide them by two, and that's the answer. Diversity in opinion was as much an issue then and is as it is now. What? So Jesus was, could be very pointed. You know, in, in how he spoke, but he always did it with compassion for the other, a sense that the other is, you know, when he says, we call God our father. Our father. So meaning we have a common spiritual genesis. And so that that's one thing that really, really needs to be understood. And then I also think, it is okay. I wish I could tell, you know, I mean, I do try to tell, but maybe I'll take this moment to say. It is okay to change your mind. It is okay to be. This does not show weakness to be open to new ideas and to growth. And, and I think we've kind of lost that. And unfortunately, one aspect. I'm not one to always blame social media, but I do think one aspect among many where social media can be problematic is that everyone is creating a legislative record, so to speak, right? Like, you know, a voting record in a way. Right, because you have.

With the things that they post.

Everything they post. And so then, you know, to to change your mind seems, you know, problematic or you're wishy washy. It doesn't give people the space to discern, because everyone becomes a kind of public figure, at least in their own universe or space. And then I, I will end on this note, which is to say that, I had to discern myself whether I was going to do this podcast because, you know, I've been. Part of this life for me is to avoid, you know, the temptations of, of kind of prestige and of status. And this show is so widely known and you're widely known. But but I decided that I did want to do it, and I'm honored to do it. And I'm honored that you asked me to do it, because of who you are and the role that you play in politics. This is not me being a politician and sucking up to you, but it is truly.

I believe you because you're out of politics.

Yeah, exactly. But your listeners know this. One of the most impactful episodes I ever listened to was the one you did with Mitt Romney. You know, your approach has a spirituality about it. Whether whether, you know, whether you acknowledge it or not, that's how I receive it. And so we need more spaces and venues that don't seek to, that don't seek to, to, to, to to tamp down our disagreements. But but model really good, respectful human behavior grounded in our lived experiences.

Well, I appreciate that. And let me say that, I wanted to speak with you because you're such an interesting guy. And because I knew that you would grace this space, and you have done that. And I am so looking forward to seeing and hearing about your experiences in Africa. I hope we this is not the last of our conversations here.

I hope not, and I look forward to being in touch David.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to The Axe Files, brought to you by the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio. The executive producer of the show is Miriam Finder Annenberg. The show is also produced by Saralena Barry, Jeff Fox, and Hannah Grace McDonald. And special thanks to our partners at CNN, including Steve Lickteig and Haley Thomas. For more programing from the IOP, visit politics dot uChicago dot edu.