And they're chanting NYPD. KKK, comparing the New. York police to Ku Klux Klan.

'Hey, everyone, I'm David Chalian, CNN's political director. And welcome to the CNN Political Briefing. That's the sound of police arresting pro-Palestinian protesters at Columbia University Wednesday night. 109 people were arrested in total after protesters barricaded themselves for days inside Hamilton Hall. Now, of course, this isn't the first time Columbia students have been arrested for protesting. The college has a rich history of protest and social activism. In fact, 56 years ago to the day on April 30th, 1968, more than 700 antiwar protesters were arrested on Columbia's campus. In fact, they were occupying the exact same building, Hamilton Hall. So Fordham University history professor Mark Naison was at those 1968 demonstrations. He joins us now to tell us about the similarities and differences between then and now. Let me start, if I could just get your overall reaction to what you're seeing on our screens everywhere we look in these last days. What's happening on the campus at Columbia and elsewhere, but specifically Columbia because of your history there? What went through your mind as you were watching this unfold?

I felt an incredible sense of deja vu because when we started the Columbia occupation, a lot of the things happened by accident. We didn't initially plan to take a building. The idea was to go into the administration building and mill around, but there were security guards outside, and people made a split second decision not to try to overpower them and get into the building. And then somebody yelled to the gym site where Columbia was trying to build a gymnasium in Morningside Park. So 500 of us veered over there and began pulling down the fence of the construction site until the police came. And then somebody shouted, let's go back to campus and take a building. And then 500 of us went into Hamilton Hall. People from all over the country started coming in to visit the strike. H rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, the Grateful Dead actually performed in front of the Ford of, you know, the Columbia's student center. And then when the police came in to pull people out of the buildings. That then radicalized the entire community. He wasn't necessarily that sympathetic to the occupation, because they kind of beat anybody who was a bystander.

Which they were clearly, in today's scenario, trying to avoid repeating that kind of history. And I guess you say deja vu, but I hear where you see the similarities. Are there places where you also see differences? This is a different time.

The biggest difference is during the Columbia strike of 68, a lot of students didn't like it, but there wasn't a whole group of people who felt personally attacked by it. The way many Jewish students and faculty who supported Israel do today. And that's a totally different situation. You know then. And it makes it a much more complicated problem for university administrators that people feel attacked by these protests.

Yeah. We heard one student protester who later issued what I guess he called an apology. I will leave it to folks to determine if it is an actual apology. After posting on social media, he said that, quote, Zionists don't deserve to live. Yeah. So that to me, as you're describing, that is a whole different kind of dynamic.

Except for one thing like, you know, we see student protesters and protesters generally said a lot of cringeworthy things. In the 68 protests. You remember? You know, you're so young, you don't remember. Like the Black Panther Party. Power to the people. Off the pig. Off the pig means kill a cop. We were chant, chanting off the pig casually. How do you think police officers felt that didn't attack other students? But it sure did offend police officers and their families. So I'm fully accustomed to people who were in these protests saying outrageous, cringeworthy things.

Okay, you're a historian and an expert in protest movement in this way, and I'm wondering how you see the impact of this movement. How will the historians of the future, do you think, look back and see this movement, and will the nuance of the situation be captured, or does nuance get lost in these kinds of nuance?

Always gets lost. But let me say this to me in 1968. When we took over buildings at Columbia. It was three months after the Tet Offensive revealed that the war in Vietnam was being lost and all these people were being killed. And also student deferments had been eliminated. We were outraged, and we were determined to stop this war by any means necessary. And it took five years before the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam. Tens of thousands of more American soldiers killed. Lots of people were arrested. So when I see the images our students are getting out of Gaza through Instagram and TikTok, which are not presented on major media outlets that most of their elders get. And remember, some of these students are Palestinians who lost family members. They are as outraged as we are about what they see as the genocide in Gaza, and are determined to stop it by any means necessary. And to them, the only way to stop it is put pressure on the president and major institutions to put pressure on Israel to stop the bombing and invasion, and also begin to dismantle West Bank apartheid. The whole point of these protests is that the only way to put pressure on Israel is to put pressure on the United States.

'I hear the perspective that you're giving voice to, but the only way is quite a statement to say the only way, because what we see is in in what protesters have been doing, they have been blocking access for other students to go and study for finals, and they've been creating environments that other students feel unsafe in. There have been some clearly anti-Semitic and hate filled language, being displayed here. So that can't be the only way to change policy. Those pieces.

As a historian. I beg to differ. The greatest. The biggest gain of the labor movement in the 1930s was the Flint strike of 1936 and 37, where protesters occupied nine General Motors plants. For two months they fought off the local police. They beat up infiltrators. And eventually, General Motors agreed to unionize in response to this quite violent and intrusive protest.

So you don't believe peaceful protesting has the impact that violent protests?

'No. Let me put it this way, I think. It's a combination. I think you know most of them. I prefer peaceful, nonviolent protests to violent protest. Civil disobedience is what won the civil rights movement. People making moral stands. But when you're dealing with a volatile situation, like a war with these kind of passions, you're going to get. Very disciplined moral protesters and people who are crazy with rage. And there's no way to stop the rage because it's coming from something real. When you see what was done in Gaza. If you know people who. We're talking about two thirds of the housing in a in a in an urban area the size of Manhattan destroyed 2 million people, displaced people, starving. And these are people's friends and relatives. I can't tell them. Not to be angry. Would I prefer they didn't shout anti-Semitic stuff? Hell yeah, I'm Jewish. But unfortunately, you're going to have to move mountains to get anything that can bring peace there. And to me, it's creating a Palestinian state in the West Bank. And that is not Israel is not going to do with outside pressure, because the settlers have so much power in that society. I have friends who can't stand these protests. Who who are Jewish, and they treat us as a threat. And they also support a two state solution. And what I tell them. You can't get there without these protests. Unfortunately.

Well, it's not clear you can get there with these protests either, right? I mean, obviously we can't predict the future of.

'Let me let me make a prediction. Within 5 to 10 years. If Israel does it make a huge about-face from the Netanyahu leadership? The U.S. relation to Israel is going to be redefined in a way that nobody could imagine. And let me tell you something. My Jewish students are all on board with this. They're part of the protests. The there was a huge generational difference in the U.S. Jewish community.

There is, although we have heard from many Jewish students on campuses across the country feeling very unsafe. Yes, and feeling, targeted through these protests, even if they understand the pursuit of the protest.

No, I look, I have a friend who says, Mark, everything you write about what Israel is doing, I agree with. But every time you say it, I feel like you're plunging a knife into me. There's this trauma here on both sides. It's a terrible situation.

It is. And you referenced that part of the goal here for the protest is to apply pressure to the American president. We're going to take a quick break, because when we come back, I want to discuss with you the backdrop of a presidential campaign is taking place while these protests are underway. And that has its own dynamic. We'll have a lot more with Fordham University history professor Mark Naison in just a moment. Welcome back. We're here with Fordham University history professor Marc Naison. He's giving us a bit of a history lesson on social movements at his alma mater, Columbia University. Well, both a history lesson, any current events lesson, all wrapped into one, I guess. So back in 1968, that two was the year of a presidential election.

Oh, it was.

And, and, you know, we have this 2024 presidential election. So what do you how do you see that backdrop to this year's protests? Earlier, you were saying part of the the very goal of these protests is to apply political pressure on Biden to perhaps start redefining that relationship with Israel.

'When I tell people that we're starting something that is going to take a long time. The anti-apartheid movement started in 1978 at American universities, and that's where the call to divest from South Africa apartheid didn't end to the early 90s. Teachings against the Vietnam War started in 1965. U.S. didn't withdraw from Vietnam until 1973. We're now starting to have mass movements, so force us relationship with Israel to be redefined. This is not going to happen right away. I don't know what President Biden is going to do. I think he understands that, if at all possible, he's gotta get Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire. But I don't know if he can deliver it.

'Oh, exactly. So let me ask you this. Politically, the position that Joe Biden is sort of been in is. He denounces anti-Semitism, right? He denounces unruly, violent protests that are endangering other students in the like. Right.

I understand people have strong feelings and deep convictions in America. We respect the right and protect the right for them to express that. But it doesn't mean anything goes.

And he gives voice to the humanitarian plight that is happening in Gaza as something to be validly concerned about, and that peaceful protests would be totally appropriate in that. And I'm just wondering, can all those pieces fit together?

No.

Oh, there you go. Why not?

I mean, I wish I could say yes again. Think of these students seeing what's going on in Gaza. And remember, they're getting it from sources you don't get.

Well, that's because the largely mainstream media organizations, especially from the West, have not been able to get into Gaza to document.

Well, they're all I get these posts through my students from inside Gaza. And let me tell you, you know, the idea that American weapons are doing this to people is is driving them crazy. They want the U.S. to stop arming Israel if it leads to the level of violence in Gaza and support for what the settlers are doing in the West Bank, which is also really upsetting a lot of people. Now because of the rage of the protests, and also because people in the United States pretty much hate student protesters, especially student protesters at elite universities. This is not going to play well politically for what I am looking for.

Well, doesn't that shouldn't that inform the calculus here?

Absolutely not. For the young people doing it.

But they are ultimately trying to achieve a political and policy goal.

Yes and no. When you're young, there's always there's an existential element in this. They're defining themselves. We're stopping a genocide by any means necessary. And if we have to disrupt the society, if we have to make universities ungovernable, if we have to block bridges and tunnels to save lives in Gaza, we're going to do it.

As you just noted, so those kinds of actions are part of what makes it not broadly politically popular to the American electorate. And my question is if that's not going to factor into the calculus, or maybe you don't even think you kind of indicated earlier that peaceful protests that don't have these kinds of confrontations or some violence or some agitation in it may not achieve what they're looking to achieve, that they may not be as successful as some protest with violence.

I mean, let me give an example. I teach a course at Fordham on the history of affirmative action.

Yes.

There's a great book about the history of affirmative action, The Ironies of Affirmative Action, which says that no civil rights leaders dared call for affirmative action. This was a response of white elites in government and business to the riots that were taking place in American cities from 64 to 68. And all history books talk about it. We're very proud of the civil rights laws that were passed as a result of these incredibly disciplined, moral, nonviolent protest led by people like Doctor King. But we forget that affirmative action came as a desperate response to riots. See, the problem is, I wish I could have comforting things to say.

That's okay. I'm not looking for a comforting things to say, here's my...

Why I think we're we're in an incredibly difficult moment in American history.

You recall, of course, in 1968, in the Chicago Democratic National Convention. I don't know if you were there protesting.

No, I wasn't there.

Okay. Do you envision that? I mean, it just happens to be Chicago is going to be the location of the Democratic National Convention again this year. Do you envision that Biden is going to have to contend with an outside element that is bloody, but at a huge at a huge size that we haven't seen?

I don't think at the same size, but I might be wrong. We are in a really volatile, dangerous moment in U.S. history. It's terrible. And I hope that in the long run, something good can come out of this. You know, and I think in the long run, it will. But how many people have to die, go to jail, be expelled from school and and face each other with hate to get their. I would love it if it happened in six months. I would love it if it happened in a year. I truly believe it will happen. I work with Israelis and Palestinians in groups like Standing Together in a Land for All who are trying to set the basis for a two state solution, which nobody on either side wants now. But that's the only way to resolve this.

So my final question for you, professor, is what is your message to the protesters to keep up what you're seeing on your screen? Don't make any adjustments or do you?

I would say try to educate people instead of attacks them. Use this as a teaching moment to learn about the history of Israel and Palestine. A lot of these protesters have Jewish students in them. If you can create a beloved community within the encampments, maybe that will show the way to something that could be created in Israel and Palestine. I personally refuse to give in to violence. I refuse to take sides. I keep my lines of communication open to Palestinians and Israelis and. It's it's it's very to Jews and Muslims. It's very hard. But that's our only hope. The hope is bringing people together to imagine a peaceful. Place where everybody is respected and we have to create models of that here.

Professor, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you David.

'Appreciate it. That's it for this week's edition of the CNN Political Briefing. And we want to hear from you. Is there a question you'd like answered about this election cycle? Is there a guest you really want to hear from? Give us a call at (301) 842-8338, or send us an email at CNN Political Briefing at gmail.com. And you might just be featured on a future episode of the podcast. So don't forget to tell us your name, where you're from. How we can reach you, and if you give us permission to use the recording on the podcast. CNN Political Briefing is a production of CNN audio. This episode was produced by Grace Walker. Our senior producer is Haley Thomas. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is executive producer of CNN Audio. Support from Alex Manesseri, Robert Mathers, John Dionora, Leni Steinhart, Jamus Andrest, Nicole Pesaru and Lisa Namerow. And special thanks to Katie Hinman. We'll be back with a new episode on Friday, May 10th. Thanks so much for listening.